Pistol Pete

Thanks guys

Hey Guys - For anyone who uses compressed air to clean their bottles before filling, what are you using to dry the air so as to not get moisture in the bottles?

I've been looking at the different filter/dryer options available and they all seem to have chemicals "known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects" so I'm a little bit wary of using them for fear of them leaving some sort of trace amounts of lead/chemical residue on the inside of my bottles.

I'm not sure if that is a valid concern or if I am I just being overly paranoid about the whole thing? Thanks everyone

PS: I'm only using an oil-less compressor so my only concern is the moisture

Thanks Will - Do the calibration points matter? One thermometer I was looking at has 5 points: 32, 40, 60, 100, 120°F but that is a mercury thermometer which is illegal in my state. Another thermometer is has 6 points: 32, 50, 68, 86, 104, 122°F Will the fact it's not calibrated at 60 matter? Thanks again

Hi Jeff- that doesn't sound right to me, my knowledge is limited so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't think the size of the cylinder should influence the reading of the hydrometer.

Hey Guys - Just wondering how often you have your thermometers calibrated and at what temperature points? I didn't see anything in the gauging manuals regarding this, but from what I've read on here it seems like it's mandatory.

Also, what about your floor scales and hydrometers? Are the rules for them the same as well?

Thanks!

it's been years since i was close enough to metrology to do this subject justice. I do remember that 0.5 lb resolution and 0.5 lb accuracy are different, and the uncertainty of reading a digital display is always considered +- 1 least significant digit.

let's do an easy one - you're blending down from 190 to 80 proof, and you receive your raw spirit in 55 gallon drums. if you divide that drum in half, when you're down to 80 proof, you'll have 65 gallons - not good - it won't fit. so, knowing that in advance, you make three batches. 55/3 = 18.33 gallons. you'll need 124.56 lbs of spirit, then you'll add water to a total of 345.1 lbs...43.54 gallons.

let's say you blow the weighment of the alcohol in one direction and the water in the opposite direction. so instead of 124.5 lbs ethanol, you dispense only 124, and your total is 345.6lbs. what's the error in proof? you would be about 0.4 proof low. you can measure that with the hydrometer, and make a quick correction, but it will be difficult and time consuming, and you'll want to make the secondary corrections using a desktop scale to weigh small amounts of water and alcohol.

there are small floor scales that are NTEP rated and have 0.1 lb resolution and will weigh to 600 lb - plenty for a 55lb drum. they're around $600. that would reduce the error to under 0.1 proof (under the same assumptions).

making the assumption that resolution and reading are the dominant factor (we're assuming that the scale is accurate and our use of the scale is the cause of all errors), then when you use your big scale to weigh larger quantities, then the error is a smaller percentage. if you're only weighing 10 lbs, then 0.5 lb is a big deal, but not so much if you're weighing 500 lbs.

good luck,

will

Thanks Will, you're the man

OK thanks again Will, I appreciate it. Kind of off topic, but how accurate is your scale? I purchased a 1000 lb .5 lb accuracy floor scale to weigh and mix in 55lb drums and I'm wondering if that will not be accurate enough?

Thanks Will- So do you suggest getting the calibrated one and then also some less expensive uncalibrated ones with proper divisions and then using the calibrated to calibrate the uncalibrated? (say that 5 times fast )) Or do you suggest just getting the calibrated and using that? I'm a little bit confused on how to proceed. Thanks again.

You are not kidding, these are expensive thermometers.

I bought from ICL Calibration Labs (who I highly recommend as very customer service friendly). The thermometer ended up being $243.

They did offer me a calibrated digital thermometer, but I didn't want to spend the $570 at this time.

It is: Dostmann Model 370 with Pt-100 sensor,

Watertight, Min/Max, -100/300°C, 0.1

Resolution, HACCP tested. Supplied with NIST

traceable, ISO/IEC 17025 accredited report of

calibration at 32, 122 & 212°F and service

case.

I also got my hydrometers from them, $201.50 each.

Hey guys, so what type of thermometer do you recommend if you are not able to ship mercury to your state?

I've talked with reps from novatech and HB and no one seems to have any idea what they are talking about

In the junction box that is attached to the pump there should already be a grounding screw where your ground wire will attach. By code, you'll have to bring a separate ground wire with your power wires (i.e. if your pump is single phase, hot, neutral and ground, or if 3 phase, the 3 hots and a ground) and it has to be grounded at the panel where the power comes from, and nowhere else. If you're using metallic conduit (rigid, IMC, EMT, etc.) then you can use a bonding ring where it transitions into the panel.

The ground screw in the motor junction box may or may not be green, but it will be a separate screw (sometimes just an empty, tapped hole) where the ground wire connects. It should be conspicuous as a screw that's actually enclosed within the box and isn't one of the screws that seals the box cover.

One more thing, the ground wire must be the same gauge as the power wires. Also, if you're using stranded wire, it's best to use a crimp connector (either fork or ring) to attach the ground wire to the grounding screw.

Thanks Paul, I'm not sure if what you are suggesting would work in my situation or not. The pump I ordered is the same one mentioned by Scott from Twenty2Vodka in another thread:

High-flow Plastic Air-powered Diaphragm Pump, Acetal, Santoprene Diaphragm, 4 Gpm. Available at Mcmaster Carr item # 13465K29

I talked to the guys at Mcmaster Carr and they said it needed to be grounded for static electricity, even though it's plastic (which I don't understand). They weren't able to tell me how to ground it, and instead said that I should consult OSHA guidelines :/

I'm hoping once I get my hands on it, I'll be able to figure out, but was hoping someone might have a better idea. This stuff is obviously not my strong point

Thanks again for any insight...

Hey guys-

Quick question: How did you ground your pumps/equipment? Also, did any of you bond it too?

Thanks.

Thanks Dave- I appreciate it!

Thanks Scott!

I guess my question is...if one were to be weighing high proof spirits, and one were to accidentally spill said high proof spirits onto the scale, shouldn't the scale be explosion proof to prevent fire, explosion etc? Or am I just over thinking the whole process?

Thanks for the responses.

So are you guys just using regular old digital floor scales or some kind of specialized explosion proof ones?

I have 9 pallets of bottles totalling 1750 bottles in 6 pack case boxes and sleeves. The bottles are coated black. We have 16000 t tops (black) and 25000 black shrink sleeves with gold tear tabs. We closed our bottling operation and these must go. Bottles $0.20 each, tops $0.05 each and sleeves at $0.05 each. Quantity discounts if you take it all.See photo atteched.

Hi - What size are the bottles? Also, I do not see any picture attached. Thanks.

HI... great question..

I know they sort of force you into an explosion proof stainless steel pump (they being fire department). Having said that, you could mortage your house for one of these but since housing market is in slumps, you may not be so lucky.. I am using a regular sanitary transfer pump.. 125 bucks on Ebay.

to control your ratio.. You will need a liquid batch controller.. this includes a flowmeter, valve and controller.. In your case two valves and 2 flow meters.

hope this point you in the right direction.

cheers.

Thanks everyone for the info I really appreciate it. I've been looking and researching and generally coming up with nothing. From what I gather, most people are using an air powered pump, which means I would have to buy an air compressor and pump separately..and if I wanted to know how much I've pumped then buy a separate batch controller? That or weigh it on a scale. It just seems like the whole process is so complicated for something that should be so simple...

If anybody has any other info or ideas it would be appreciated. Thanks again.

(PS. Artesian, do you have a link or model information for the sanitary pump you are using? Thanks.)

Hi Guys- I have some very simple questions that I just can't seem to find the answers to. Any help or thoughts would be appreciated.

Let's say I have a tank full of distilled high proof ethanol that I now need to dilute with water down to 80 proof. My questions are:

Question #1: How do I pump/transfer the ethanol into a mixing tank? (Preferably without blowing up.)

Question #2: How do I know how much ethanol I have pumped from Tank A into Tank B?

These seem like they should be such simple questions but so far I haven't found any answers. Thanks again.

Few questions for you all:

1.) Have any of you ever been denied by insurance companies for a bond?

2.) How much assets/financial backing are they looking for to approve you?

3.) Anybody ever get started with little to no liquid assets?

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Anybody know specifically what happens if you were to go over your bond?

You will need them all, state, local, federal may just be called something else. coop

Thanks coop- yeah after talking with state and feds it looks like we would have to apply for basically all the same permits as if we were to distill ourselves...

Hello- Is anybody familiar with what type of permits would be required to sell alcohol that you are not distilling yourself? For instance, if one were to buy bulk spirits and repackage it, add some flavors, and make available for sale.

I assume that doing that is generally looked down upon since this is a distilling forum, but any information would be appreciated

There are 50 states in the union, each one has different laws. When submitting for federal license it had to include a precise drawing showing everything including all sizes makes and models of all equipment. We did not deviate from those drawings up to and including bonded area and retail store area. The state license needed a federal license number for the application true. In that spot I just wrote in pending. The state knowing I could not produce a drop with out federal license just went ahead with the paper work on their own. The worse thing the state would do is deny application until federal permit was issued. Nothing for me to loose but time. The federal government and state government want you in business ASAP. The sooner you are producing the sooner they collect the taxes. They are your friends most trouble will come from local governments city or county.

Coop

Cool...thanks alot Coop

We ordered our still 7/20/07, started our remodel and applications on 9/15/2007. Filed for both Federal an State on 10/10/2007.

We received our state lic on11/03/2007 and our federal on 01/06/2008. We took delivery of still on 12/20 /2007 had it installed two days later. Had our certificate of occupation on 01/06/2007. Our town did not charge us or require us to purchase a liquor license so all we have to pay is a $30.00 business license.

Hi Coop- Couple quick questions...

So you received your state license before you had the still in? Also you received your state before your Federal?? How was that possible? Just wondering because I was under the impression you had to get Federal first and that to get Federal that you needed your still in, up and running. Thanks

Hi all - Great forum...

Does anybody know how the TTB handles odd formulations of spirits that don't fit neatly into pre-existing categories? For instance what if someone wanted to mix vodka and rum (or whiskey) together and sell it? How would the TTB handle something like that?

Not saying I wanted to, but hypothetically I am wondering. Thanks.