Donald R Outterson

Ohio's Law is as follow's 4303.041 A-3a. Effective date 09/22/2008 HB562

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4303.041

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson

Thanks for the update Burton.

Bob

My suggestion is to distill them all and let God sort them out!

If you are being called to use enzymes, do it now, so we can taste it when it's fully aged. Show me your stuff. I'm distilling mine!

Best regards,

Don

I haven't formed an opinion on the use of enzymes yet, but I do have an observation/question:

How many here buy yeast as opposed to culturing their own? Is this any different?

I can appreciate the satisfaction one gains from going deeply into scratch. For me, the ultimate was personally harvesting, seasoning and milling the black walnut growing in my back yard that I used to build my own harp. I only wish I could have hand-drawn the bronze for the strings. That said, I don't think it's cheating to go to the lumberyard and pick up some fine hardwoods. I also gained a lot of pride from making another harp from purchased mahogany, but absolutely low-tech: no power tools.

John,

Standard classicial formulas are in all basic distilling text books and in most cases defined by Federal law, so the range is not always as large one might first think.

Best regards,

Don

Just wondering...

How do you all get you first receipes?

Can you open the doors with a receipe that's fairly proven and start making great product or is it mostly trial and error?

The type of distillers yeast used can also have an impact on the amount of higher alcohols. Make sure your yeast is compatable with your additives. Red wine distillation has the same problem, so watch for compatability there, as there is less data on apple distillations than grape distillation's. Classical high cuts are the rule in a case like this and might be the best answer.

PS never use pectic enzyme in distillation fermentations.

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson

I purchase a couple of used tanks, and am trying to find a good vendor for the manway gaskets. Anyone have any suggestions?

Manways and therefore manway gaskets are brand specific, if you know the brand of your tank or manway then you can order the replacement gasket. If you don't know anything you must then ask someone who know's or take your chances buying from stock. There are a few mgf's that vulcanize custom gaskets for a fee, but they are non-refundable. You should know the composition of the gasket material, county of MFG, temp & pressure range and it's shape and dia. Also note if the gasket is single or double sided and if the manway is swing in or swing out. If it is single sided you may also need gasket adheseve.

That will get you in the ballpark.

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson

Woodstone Creek

Beer Schnapps as a label has not been approved by the TTB for 4 months 3 tries and counting, the formula from the local microbrewery was accepted on the 2nd time through. Its been over 2 years so far and it is fighting me every step of the way.

We are now re-submitting to product with a faciful name and not calling the product beer schnapps at all.

Any suggestions?

I have one for us all! Tax payer Advocate Service (TAS) is for problem cases not resolved though normal channels. It is used in other areas of the Dep of Treasury such as the IRS with great success, but not at the TTB. I have repeatedly suggeted to the TTB that this service be implemented in this area of the Treasury as well. So, far they have not responded. Perhape ADI should document a industry request for TAS to show the need in the full light of day. The would allow our special needs to be addressed and would provice our industry with an advocate that answers directly to congress rather than the TTB. They will then be required to respond on time and will be documented on their actions for all too see. Why not be included with the rest of the businesses?

Donald R Outterson

Woodstone Creek

Actually I thought about printing on clear, and then using a white sheet of paper to simulate the white, but of course we had to complicate it even more- the white on the bottle is a gradient.

An EPA dislosure form was filed on both the Rogue Distillery and Brewery with the app for each license. Make sure that there have been no changes and confirm the status is as registered. EPA will select inspections both at randon and on complaint. Be on good terms with both the field officer and the office MGR, so the on-site visit with be a confirmation of an understanding rather than a surprise.

Hey you've got a pretty location there, in Newport, If if worked for the EPA I love that road trip!

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson, Woodstone Creek Distillery

You may designate the tasting room for tax paid spirits only, which take's it out of the bonded area and therefore becomes legal.

Hope this helps.

Donald R Outterson

Posted at the request of Bill Owens...

Hi Bill,

I e-mailed you previously about legislation that will be introduced in our state to allow farm distillery operations. I spoke with the TTB and they said no sampling can occur on the bonded facility. Do you know of any distilleries that are using a work around to be able to provide sampling. I would like to contact them to discuss. The TTB told me the only way was to have a seperate retail license and not within the bonded premises.

Thanks,

Jeff

I sell re-prints of three old distilling books for $37.50 + $7.50 UPS anywhere USA. We can ship world wide as well.

1) Leonard Monzert's Practical Distiller 1889

2) Manufacture of Whiskey Brandy & Cordials by Irving Hirsch 1937

3) Distillation of Alcohol & De-Naturing by F.B. Wright 1918.

I have book reviews of these books that I wrote for American Brewer & Distiller a few years back.

The old men were right and we need to learn all we can from them.

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson

Maybe this needs a whole section of it's own, but since there isn't I'll post here.

I know I'm always interested in books on distilling, how they made liquors in the "old days". Of course, it was better back then.

I can't remember what I was searching for, but I ran across this book on books.google.com

Chemistry and Technology - Wines and Liquors

by Karl M Herstein 2007 (humm, actually 1935) New reprint.

Reading on line seemed interesting. Apparently it's been republished in 2007 (about $30 from Amazon and B&N; more expensive other places).

Edit:

At Project Gutenberg, they have online a copy of Samuel McHarry's 1809, The Practical Distiller.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21252/21252-h/21252-h.htm

And also Anthony Boucherie's 1819, The Art of Making Whiskey.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21592/21592-h/21592-h.htm

Jonathan,

Per CFR 27, Bourbon does not allow the addition of enzymes , so only the natural ones' in the grains may be used. You can still use the enzymes, but if you do you must call it something else.

The Alcohol Text Book, The Pracital Distiller and Whiskey all contain classical Bourbon formulae.

I have found that the commercial malts tastes like the company that made it as well as the genus and species. There are plenty of malts and grains yet to discovered for distilling. The reason the companies can't tell you is because they don't know.

Best regards,

Don

Jonathan,

I use direct fired pot stills for the last 10 years because they yield the most flavor to my spec.

Don't worry about how you start, you'll be changing and improving the design yourself as you go. I suggest having a modular design, where you could add parts later, even if you don't know what they are now.

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson

Hi Folks- I was just wondering what type of stills do you have? I figure almost everyone is running the steam jacketed types. If so which make, size, additional feature?

Are any of you old school using a direct fired pot still and such? That's what I'll be working with for at least the first few years.

I will have one of "The Colonel's" 60 gallon/225 liter Georgia Ridge with an additional Ozark Mountain head. Low budget but I've heard good things about his products.

http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/id25.html

Dear student,

Decide what type of still (pot or column) and what type of spirit is your focus. Then target a distillery that is closest to your concept, then ask them what they would charge you, to go through a batch with them. The more homework you do before hand the more you will come away with. Decide if the distilling lifestyle works for you and your family, because you will need their support in the days ahead.

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson

I am a beginner looking for some training on the art of Artisan Distilling. We have what we feel is a terrific idea, a solid business background, and reasonable funds but zero experience as distillers. Other than the still-kits I purchased on the internet how does one get started? I did see one @ MSU in April but have a scheduling conflict.

I am from NY and think with the laws here I might best start by re-packaging an existing product...

Guy,

We found an enterpise zone as a good fit for microdistillery zoning. There are many areas competing for new businesses to locate there and generate income and jobs. Play them against each other to earn your business. Your ventre could fit into their agenda and they then would make a place for your distillery. Different towns market themselves as places that business should come to, take them at their word and ask them what they have to offer your distillery.

I am saving up to buy our next location, while I continue to rent, but am uncertian about the poor economy, so I'm taking a wait and see additude.

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson

We have recently found several locations that we are seriously considering moving our distillery to. We are in the city (Milwaukee) and trying to remain here. We originally got our occupancy permit based on the fact that we had so little alcohol on the premises that we fell under certain minimums and didn't qualify as hazardous occupancy. Well, now we are trying to relocate so we can increase our on site barrel storage of aging products, of course that will put us over the minimum and we will have to obtain hazardous occupancy. Hazardous occupancy may only be granted in "heavy industry" zoning which severely limits our options.

After studying the regulations essentially what I've determined is there are two levels with no in between. You're either non hazardous because you have so little (ranging from zero to a few gallons) or you are hazardous (ranging from a few gallons to billions!) Again, no middle ground. Our city strictly adheres to national and international codes, which seem to allow no middle ground either. The problem with hazardous occupancy is it severely limits what can be done within the plant (expensive build out), but even worse what can be done outside or adjacent to the plant (retail). While I understand what we do IS hazardous to some extent, I don't think the hazard is the same as opening a full ethanol fuel distillery producing millions of gallons annually.

In trying to work around these issues my experience has been that the city employees seek ways to why it cannot be done and are not very helpful in determining how it can be done. So, anyone have any experience getting through these sorts of issues? Any advice?

Rich,

I've worked in Australia as a brewer and found a vast selection of domestic malts and fermenatables that I long to distill here in the USA. The Australian malting companies make allot of products for the export market that will knock your socks off!

Keep up the good work.

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson

Welcome! Just started actively following the forums myself a couple days ago.

We've considered an organic offering here, but will probably do it in limited production. It can be difficult for us to simultaneously embrace the local farmer and organic grain - supply issues. We're trying to use grain solely from the county we are located in, which is a large wheat producer. Not in production yet, we've just received our license, but we're having some moderate difficulty simply sourcing wheat, let alone considering an organic. Finding a local mill will be another story altogether.