Trevor

On 9/24/2017 at 11:39 AM, bluestar said:

3-basin sink AND a separate utility sink (mop sink) are required. The latter can be a floor sink. It appears you have no plans to barrel age any product, at least you have no room in that layout. You aren't expecting to condition the air in that production room using a window AC in the summer, are you? If you are not going to use chilled fermenters, you need to control the room temperature well. 

Starting on a shoestring. I may install a mini split HVAC system. Unless another option is available. 

On 9/23/2017 at 3:27 PM, MG Thermal Consulting said:

Are you going to use a chiller for cooling stills or well water? Up to 10 HP you can get chillers in 208-230/1/60, outdoor you'll need glycol mix for the chiller if you have any freeze issues.  I do carry a "dry" glycol cooler to satisfy cooling in winter, popular up Northern US.

Usually farm distillers don't have 3 phase power and water wells that don't satisfy the usage for distillery cooling.

Really good questions. I'm actually in a urban/suburban area even though I'll be classified as a Farm Distillery. I have a call into the power company to get an answer on what kind of power is available. I have city water available or I can us a well. The city water will cost me >$20k to tap into due to fees. $11K plus equipment for a water well. But the driller can't guarantee flow rate. So I'm on the fence a little. The other down side of city water is they use that consumption to determine your sewer bill as well. I'm on a tight budget so I have been trying to figure the best method/sources for heating and cooling. Ady advice or recommendations are welcome.  I'm in Springfield, VA.

On 9/22/2017 at 10:00 PM, Falling Rock said:

Lose all the walls you can! Mass space will be more important than segregating things.

Start with a three bay sink, so you won't have to change it.

I see molasses, so rum?  Good would be turning a molasses ferment in three days. Your fermentation tanks should be at least six times your still capacity. How often do you want to distill and how fast can you turn a ferment?

What are the minimum walls I need in the production areas?  Just a mechanical room?  And maybe a boiler room?  What around a locked storage area?  I'll pick up more fermenters as production increases.  

On 9/22/2017 at 3:53 PM, indyspirits said:

Bathrooms clearly aren't ADA compliant. Plan on a 7x7 box with nothing fancy -- forget about a urinal and stool. Google "Standard ADA bathroom" and you'll get a million hits. We have two identical. Both unisex. Both dull and utilitarian.  Seems to work OK. 

You'll want to have forklift access to your storage, i.e. approach from the widest dimension. You'll forever be fighting yourself entering from the "end" of the room.

Heaping on to what others have said, I think you need twice the amount of fermenters. 

Be caution of the on demand heater -- consider what happens to flow rate if both bathrooms and your kitchen area are using hot water at once.

Think about having your RO close to where you intend to proof/gauge

You'll want a rolling lockable tool chest. Harbor freight is your friend.

You'll want a 

I dont see a furnace / mechanical room.  We cheaped out the first winter and used only a fireplace (hey, lean times!) and still heat to heat our entire building. Got dinged twice by inspectors when temp fell below 68. 

You'll need a water softener in front of your RO system.

Think about process hose storage; hose bib locations, 220 outlets for pumps, electrical drops from the ceiling, need for 3-phase power, location of NEMA approved enclosure for VFDs, etc, Fridge for yeast storage (you dont want to store your gogurt with your EC-1118) 

Where does your electrical drop come in? Just stating the obvious  but that dictates where your electrical room will/should be.

For a small distillery what kind of electrical would you suggest?  4-220V in strategic locations and 110 around the perimeter?  Each still will need a 220V.  Maybe I'll switch to a tank water heater.  I had a on-demand before for a restaurant and it was pretty handy and saved a lot of space.

On 9/22/2017 at 8:55 AM, PeteB said:

At a quick glance definitely not enough fermenters unless you are planning to be part time.

Thanks.  I'll pick up more once business picks up.

On 9/22/2017 at 8:48 AM, Tom Lenerz said:

A few things, I'm not sure where you are located, but do you need to send your plans to the city/county/state for approval?

If so you do not look ADA compliant in particular with regards to your bathrooms, also it seems like a lot of toilets/urinals for the space.

Secondly, most state health inspectors are going to require a 3-bay sink, not just a two bay.

Fire code wise, your electrical panel probably doesn't have proper access.

You also probably don't have enough space set aside for mechanical.

Two fermentors to feed two stills doesn't seem to be a good match.

With 20 foot ceilings, I would try to use space over the retail room for storage, and perhaps an office.

TTB will most likely want a separate door to your production space, not to mention just for fire escapes.

Thanks Tom. I'll increase to 7x7 or so and make the two bathrooms the same.  I'll talk to the county to see if I can collect graywater to handle the non-sewage drains. The building itself is 20 ft but there is a raised mezzanine due to the floodplain. On the second level the roof will have a 4/14 pitch so I should have 16ft or so clearance in the center. The two fermenters for now are beasue I'll have probably have one large still and one small one but that could change and I'll keep it in mind.  What do you mean about electrical access?  Should I put it over near the entrance?  Others have mentioned removing walls so I'm thinking of just having one large storage closet but I'm not sure of the security requirements for the finished product area. I'll also look at adding another door to the production area. I'm considering leavign the interior door for production employees and the deck out back for customer access since I need ADA ramps anyhow.. 

On 9/22/2017 at 10:12 AM, Michaelangelo said:

In most jurisdictions you will need a minimum of 2 ADA Compliant restrooms. 

I'm starting to think I'll have to use most of my DFUs for the two ADA bathrooms and route the rest of the water to a greywater collection system. 

I would like some feedback on  my proposed distillery floor-plan.  I'm somewhat constrained on my building size and due to being partial in a floodplain. The building will be a 30ft by 50 ft steel building 20 ft high. The distillery operations will be on 2/3 of the area on a mezzanine about 7 ft up.  The remainder of the upper area will be tasting/retail. The lower area will be for the forklift and possibly barrel/tote/supply storage. There will be a 15x30 deck at the rear. Please tell me what you think could be improved or what I may be missing.  

I've been working on my distillery floor-plan and I just discovered a serious constraint due to local regulations.  Because I will be running a house and distillery accessory structure off a sewer lateral I will be limited to 10 "drainage fixture units".  So pretty much limited to one accessory structure for any real work other than storage.  I want to be able to have a distillery and tasting room. So, can I get away with one bathroom?  What is the minimum for the rest in terms of faucets and drains? Any clever thoughts or examples? Maybe collect all the gray water and just drain black water?

I would think a a minimum:

• (5dfu) Bathroom group consisting of water closet, lavatory, and shower, including or excluding a bidet, an emergency floor drain, or both. (1.6 gpf water closet)
• (2 dfu) floor drain/floor sink
• (2 dfu) double sink
• (1 DFU)  two waterless urinals

Quote

A separate building is accessory to the main building on the same lot and the total drainage fixture units (dfus) in the accessory building will not exceed ten (10) dfus. The extension of sewer and/or water service will be permitted to only one accessory building per lot. The use of the building or business establishment to which sewer and/or water service is to be extended must meet all applicable codes, ordinances and other legal requirements.
A drainage fixture unit or DFU is a value assigned to a plumbing fixture that measures its probable discharge into the county sanitary sewer. For instance, a lavatory is 1 DFU and a water closet is 4 DFUs. 

To add to the complexity of this issue, each state regulates the three tiers (alcohol production/import , distribution and retail) differently. And there has been a lot of deregulation to let smaller players into the market so the barriers are dropping in limited ways. In virginia a "limited" distillery can act in all three tiers for their own products in limited ways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-tier_system_(alcohol_distribution)

On 9/5/2017 at 4:43 PM, Alaskan Spirits LLC said:

I ended up deciding to use DYE.  I spoke to several people (all who have had their equipment over 3 years) and they have loved it - some have already ordered more.  I will keep everyone posted on my experience.  DYE seems to ONLY do brewery and distilling equipment so hopefully I will not have the issues that you mentioned above.  For anyone else wondering - my rep is Melissa and she is truly amazing.

What kind of setup did you order?

Tom - We are starting pretty small (100 gal stills) and we'll start with Rum and ethnic specialty spirits. The gravel road is about 600 ft long. Up to this point I've been looking at siting the DSP next to the road but that site presents a lot of hurdles : floodplain regs, foundation to bring first floor above floodplain, constrained building area, etc.  Pretty much once we have the small building but there we could not do any additions.  The site down the gravel road has issues like accessing the last 100 ft and utilities. But the cost is a bit of a wash because the cost of running the utilities is less than the cost of raising the foundation 2 ft above the floodplain. The gravel road site also allows for no constraints on growth. The alternative route may be to build a super tiny distillery near the road and a builder building down the gravel road for storage and move operations if things take off.

Whiskey: We won't know for sure until we submit for permits but in my state agricultural buildings are exempt from the fire code. If I was rolling in dough or if the distillery does well then there is actually a 30" watermain all along the gravel road site.

So it's starting to look the the best location for the DSP on my land is down my private gravel road, across a creek and up a hill. In bad weather it may be difficult to reach.  I don't see anything specific about DSP access in 26 U.S. Code § 5178 but it does say "The Secretary shall prescribe such regulations relating to the location, construction, arrangement, and protection of distilled spirits plants as he deems necessary ".  Anyone know of any issue of accessing a DSP via a trail or across a creek?

2 minutes ago, Birster said:

From which distillery the picture is from? I really like the whole setup.

 

Thanks,

Catoctin Creek
https://catoctincreekdistilling.com/
 

Southernhighland - I've pondered issues distilling on the grain. Last month I visited the company that makes the stills. The guy we talked too made it sound like adding a sieve plate to the bottom of the still would solve any issues. But I just picture myself trying to scrape burnt muck out from the bottom of the still. 

mendodistilling- Do you have any links to the DISCUS discussions? From talking with the still manufacturer, they don't really do those kind of mods anymore. I've pondered hiring a welder to add a flange to work with dairy fittings. Seems do-able. So far no luck finding someone who works with copper.

Thanks for the great information!

Well, I'm setting up a farm distillery about 5 miles from the George Washington distillery. They use wood to hear their stills. And there are endless examples of US distilleries using direct heat and oil bath heat. Col. Vaugh Wilson (http://coppermoonshinestills.com/)  and Joeseph Dehner (http://www.dehnerdistillery.com/) both suggested oil bath too.  Plus all the previous discussions on the topic. 

http://adiforums.com/index.php?/topic/1267-direct-flame-fired-stills/

As far as compliance, I'll have to propose design and see how they respond. It's a bit of a grey area since I'm setting up a farm distillery and "Nonresidential farm structures" are exempt from state fire code. I plan to walk my proposed distillery layout by the local fire marshal.

If anyone on this group has one of the "Iberian Coppers (copper-alembic.com) stills, I'm trying to interpret the dimensions without luck.  For the 450L model, what is the still diameter? From the dimensions I would assume 1280mm but emailing them directly they said they don;t know because they don;t have one on hand. The website says 1980 mm x 2100 mm x 1280 mm overall.

Any recommendations on names of companies that make powerful enough electric heaters for this purpose and maybe product numbers?

I'm also looking at building a bath heater/bain marie. It's an attractive option. A copper tub big enough seem cost prohibitive but I would think bi-metellac/galvanic corrosion would be a problem if the outer container is galvanized or stainless steel. Anyone with experience?

Anyone reply with the controllers?

So what "safer" hear sources are there?  Electric?  It looks like I need about 220K BTU to heat roughly 100 gallons? Hot plate?  Immersion elements?

Same here. Info on prices please.

Great video!

Nevermind, found it!  

http://www.rikutec.com/conipac.php

http://conipac.com/

Does anyone have experience using plastic fermenting tanks?  If so what are the pros/cons beyond price? Anyone know the company that makes them?

I'm working to open a farm distillery in Virginia and so far the best option I've found for a still on my budget is a 450L/120 gallon copper alembic (http://www.copper-alembic.com/en/soldered-copper-moonshine-alembic-stills/450-l-soldered-copper-moonshine-alembic-still-premium). What heat sources are good options? The manufacturer sells something that looks like a big Bunsen burner and no BTU output is listed. The picture below shows a heat box/ stove. I've read threads that mention immersion heaters. What are some good, cost effective choices?