Tom's Foolery

On the topic of PUMPS, anybody know what to use to pump distillate (over 100 proof)? Diaphram? Explosion Proof? Will regular electric pumps work?

The shirt request may be to open a dialogue with you for further scamming. I received a series of spams indicating some guy (from overseas) wanted to place a large order of wine for his daughter's wedding, so I know the scammers are getting pretty good at customizing their spam to specific industries. While the shirt request seems juvenile and harmless enough, it may have been sent by somebody with larger plans for scamming ...

Does anybody know where I can puchase an anti-collapse valve for my still? Or, if you have built one, can you point me in the right direction on constructing one?

Seems like several distillers are purchasing glass from Vitro. I assume that Virto and Verti are not the same company. Anybody working with Vetri?

I have not seen the reference to black oak. I have seen, as I am sure you have seen, references to limousin oak. Are you aware if the oak is neutral (used), toasted, or charred? I know that it varies by cellar, but I am wondering if there is a standard (such as never using new charred oak).

A company in Cleveland (Arisdyne Systems) builds equimpent to do this for the salad dressing industry (vinegar and oil no longer separate in your dressing). The process is called hydronymic cavitation. They might be able to point you in the right direction: www.fivestartech.com and www.arisdyne.com

Are you guys ordering directly from Saver and Vitro, or using a US-based bottle distributor?

Before touching on cooperage, let me follow-up by stating that my product is in development, meaning that I am fermenting and distilling with different strategies trying to develop what I consider to be a great product. Chaptalization is one of the variables that I am testing, and I have not formed my opinion yet. I plan to form my opinion partly on input from others but primarily on what I conclude from my own tests. With regard to cooperage, my leading comment from a week ago was to point-out that cooperage has a large impact on taste, probably a larger impact than chaptalizaiton. What I know about cooperage at this point is limited in part because some of what I read on the topic, as it applies to apple brandy, is conflicting. Some resources indicate to "never" use new oak for an apple brandy. Lairds uses old bourbon barrels. I much of the calvados produced comes from neutral (really old) oak barrels, but some makers do include new oak for some products. I personally like the taste that comes from charring, but I am not certain that it fits with the taste one might expect from an apple brandy. Experimenting with cooperage is not practical, so in this area I am doing research on what others are doing and some limited testing with alternatives to barrels (which does not mean that I am producing a product flavored with oak chips). On this topic, another writer summed it up "Each cellar master has his own know-how and practices : there is no standard method for the ageing of Calvados." The big questions that I have with regard to cooperage are: new vs used and toasted vs charred. Any opinions here? The other question that I have with regard to oak has to do with ageing the cider/wine prior to distillation. Is there any improvement in the cider/wine that comes from barrel ageing prior to distillation? Or will the net-effect of the barrel be a reduction in quality due to oxidation and occasional spoilage?

Jonathan- I have also been thinking about converting a direct-fired still to a steam-heated still using copper tubing and have a couple questions that you probably researched and can answer for me: 1. why not put the coils inside the still (in direct contact with the beer/wine)? This would seem particularly important if the still is stainless due to the reduced conductivity of stainless. 2. What type of copper (soft 3/4"?) 3. did you find any specs on the pressure that your selected copper can handle to match that limit with your boiler? Thanks for sharing on this topic. It has been on my mind. Tom

As to whether a distiller "should" chaptalize, I have not formed my opinion on this yet. The variables I am considering are 1) the regulations, 2) the taste of the product, 3) tradition, 4) marketing, and 5) economics (in that order). Regarding "taste", I am not confident that I know whether a distillate produced from 7% abv hard-cider or 12% apple-wine tastes better. I could argue the theory of which "should" taste taste better for either the 7% abv or 12% abv (I think that there a lot of high-quality brandies made from wine with 12% abv). With regard to a comment I have heard that chaptalization with sugar somehow causes a product to be part rum, I am not certain this is true (by regulations or chemically). We know it is not considered rum in the regs. Chemically, I have heard (I am not chemist) that the sugar is immediately and entirely converted to fructose after it is added to cider, and that it becomes indistinguishable form the natural sugars in the cider. Again, this is what I have heard from winemakers (where chaptalizaion is common and expected), and I am not certain if it is correct. If one wants more flavor in the product, the distiller certainly many options, some of which will have as great an impact as initial abv of the cider/wine, such as distilling proof (Liard's distills to 160, while the maximum permitted for calvados is 144; armangac is distilled to just 120, and pisco is distilled "to proof" meaning they never add water after distillation). And then there is cooperage ...

So you can chaptalize to 25 brix (whether this a good idea or not would be another very interesting thread ... or conversation at the ADI conference). Thank you for pointing me to 27 CFR 24.178 - Amelioration. That would be some pretty tart cider with total acidity >20g/l. Can't imagine wanting to ameliorate to 60%. But then again unless you are making your cider out of unripened crab apples (or rhubarb?) you probably won't have that problem.

Charles- The answer I got from my formula officer at the TTB is consistent with what you have found. Basically, we follow the rules for making fruit wine, which may be chaptalized. While I do not have the codes handy, I believe we are not permitted to increase the brix beyond 24 through the addition of sugar (which seems like a reasonable level to me). Tom www.tomsfoolery.com

Is there a clean-in-place recommendation for cleaning packing? How about flushing the column with hot water, then pumping a 5% NaOH solution up the condenser and down the column (and through the packing) followed by pumping a 5% citric acid solution? I was thinking that I could do this each day after running the still.

If my memory serves me correctly, the folks from Christian Carl said that they prefer copper for the pot, head, column & plates but that they want stainless steel for the spirit pipe and the condenser. Their reasoning for the change to stainless in the spirit pipe and condenser is that the copper can leave precipitates of metal in the spirit, which may appear in finished product as sediment. Also, the copper in the condenser can create haziness. Nevertheless, I built my condenser entirely of copper (mostly because I can solder but not weld).

I purchased the book and have found it valuable. If you use the book to help design your distillery, or your business plan, then the cost is really not very much. It has more than $110 worth of consulting in it. But if you are looking for a highly-edited table-top book on whiskey, you will be disappointed. This book is seems to be specifically written for the micro-distiller who is in the early phase of planning a whiskey distillery. A narrow audience, but one that should probably buy this book.

What is the extra step if using some grains that are not malted, and does it require a separate tank or tun? Or can it be done in the same vessels as the mashing?

Do any artisan distillers have a part of their bonded premises outside of their building? My TTB agent told me that the bonded premises must be inside the building, but I am fairly certain that some micro distilleries have "outside" property bonded.

Assuming you want to have whiskey in those barrels (not empty), then I think you be subject to the regular federal, state, and local permitting requirements as any other DSP (which will warehouse spirits only). I do not yet have spirits to warehouse (just got the final state permit last Thursday), so I will be curious to see if anybody answers this differently than me ...

Most seem to agree that copper in the pot/column/vapor path improves quality. It is the distillate path (overhead pipe, pre-heater, and condenser) where there seem to be opposing beliefs. And since I am about to spend time and money on rebuilding my condenser, it sure would be nice to know if copper in the condenser can really have a negative impact (not neutral, but negative) on the product quality. I know that Christian Carl prefers stainless. Does anybody know if the other high-quality manufacturers use stainless in their condensers?

I am making some changes to my condenser and considering replacing the copper pipe and with an entirely stainless steel condenser. I know that copper is the best heat conductor, and (aside from looking nice) is easy for me to work with. However, I know that Christian Karl and others prefer stainless for everything that touches the distillate after it leaves the pot or column. I believe they prefer stainless because copper can potentially leave metal in the distillate, creating a negative copper flavor, clouding and even precipitates in the distillate. I do not know if this is just "theory" or if it really makes a difference. Is anybody aware of improved results from using stailness steel instead of copper in the condenser?

Thank you for the responses. With regard to the "can vs. should," I am still not clear about the regulations here. The TTB formula division told me that, yes, I can add sugar, but I am not confident that the question was really researched or answered correctly. With regard to the "should," you have made some good points about quality (dilution) and tradition (calvados). It is my preference to make the product without sugar but I do want to get the question about the regulations clarified so that I know what the options are. As pointed-out, some of the regulations for grape-brandy and wine do not apply to fruit brandy, and that seems to be making the question regarding sugar more difficult to answer. Tom

Is it permitted to add sugar to apple brandy prior to fermentation to increase the yield? Will it degrade the quality of the final product, or is it s "cheating"? I have received confilicting answers to this question from the TTB and from other distillers. Tom

Thank you Denver Distiller. Tom

I read the post about oak (barrels) not being required for fruit brandy. If fruit brandy (other than grape brandy) is aged with oak chips, does the label need to indicate that oak chips were used? Thanks, Tom