doubleD

B:

we're thinking seriously about doing a malt house for Breckenridge Distillery. If so, we're going to do it right and bring in a malt consultant. I doubt we could make enough for more than our own needs though.

Does anyone have plans on building a small malt house for a craft distillery? And, instructions for malting Barely and Corn.

Where do you find a moisture meter?

I want to publish this information on the ADI website.

Thanks

bill@distilling.com

Thank you for reviewing my post. I'm trying to find a way to separate solids from my mash before adding to a direct fire beer still to minimize the burn on the bottom of the still. If I had a washing machine type apparatus I could spin the wash and thereby remove the solids from the wash. Do you have any ideas on how to best do this and/ or current equipment out there to handle this sort of need?

you can buy a solids separator through vendome. talk to rob sherman. we use one with a sparger. the separator is very effective. the sparger is weak. you will need a pump to push everything through.

Wonder if someone new is trying to make a name for themselves. For purposes of cross reference - here are the rules for Bonded Winery - taken from the ttb site. here's the link:

http://www.ttb.gov/rulings/80-19.htm

And here's the text. Note that not only are functions allowed on the bonded premises - and the IRC code is referenced, but that serving of tax free wine is allowed. I wouldn't expect that (the taxfree bit) for spirits, since there aren't the equivalent testing and tasting allowances for spirits. But I betcha that the rest of the principle applies.

ATF Ruling 80-19

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms issues this ruling to state its position concerning the use of bonded wine cellar premises for hosting occasional special events such as dinners, luncheons, and similar group functions at which wine and food are served.

The Bureau has received requests from proprietors of bonded wine cellars for permission to utilize selected portions of their bonded premises as sites for dinners, luncheons, and similar special events. On these occasions, wine is served to create goodwill and/or to introduce a new product. Although the event could be held in an off-bond area of the general winery premises, a portion of the bonded is selected so that the guests may enjoy the novelty and ambience of a bonded wine cellar.

In most instances, the Bureau has approved a winemaker's application and has permitted the proprietor to serve wine, free of tax, at the special event. The Bureau has evaluated its position, concerning these events and issues this ruling to facilitate the hosting of special events by proprietors of bonded wine cellars

In addition to the operations specifically described in Section 5351 of the Internal Revenue Code, Section 5361 authorizes such other operations as may be conducted in a manner that will not jeopardize the revenue or conflict with wine operations. The implementing regulation, 27 CFR 240.134, authorizes the Director to make a finding that other operations not specifically provided for in the provisions of Part 240, may be conducted in a manner that will not jeopardize the revenue, conflict with wine operations or be contrary to the law.

The Director has found that the holding of an occasional special event, such as a dinner, luncheon, or similar group function, on the bonded premises of a bonded wine cellar at which wine and food are served, is an operation which is not contrary to law and may be conducted on bonded premises in a manner that will not jeopardize the revenue or conflict with wine operations provided the proprietor serves only tax-free wine, maintains records to document the types and quantities of wine used for such purposes, and receives no reimbursement for food, wine, or use of the bonded premises for the special event. (Under the provisions of 26 U.S.C. 5351, 5361, and 27 CFR 240.130, taxpaid wine may not be served on bonded winery premises.)

Accordingly, it is held that, upon the receipt of an application filed pursuant to 27 CFR 240.134, the ATF regional regulatory administrator may grant the proprietor continuing authority to conduct occasional special events on bonded wine cellar premises on the conditions that the proprietor serve only tax-free wine, maintain records of the types and quantities of wines used for such purposes, and receive no reimbursement for the food, wine, or use of the bonded premises for these special events.

In addition, Section 5372 specifically states that wine may be utilized in any bonded wine cellar for testing, tasting, or sampling, free of tax. The serving of wine, free of tax, at such a luncheon, dinner, or other special event, on bonded winery premises, may be considered as a bona fide use of wine within the scope of the tax-free testing, tasting, and sampling provisions of 26 U.S.C. 5372.

Accordingly, it is further held, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. 5372, that a proprietor may serve wine, free of tax, on the bonded premises of a bonded wine cellar on the occasion of such special events.

27 CFR 240.134

Thx a million for the link, Charles. I'm planning to push hard against their interpretation of the law and have asked for the specific references they have quoted. If they believe their interpretation is correct and they're going to start enforcing it then we'll be forced to unite and take a legal whack at this outdated law. I believe these laws were mostly written at the conclusion of prohibition and need to be revisited.

Another ridiculous law prevents you from have a residence attached in any way to a distillery. We had to move a deed restricted apartment from our building even though it was located on a different level, had it's own independent entrance, and had no communication with the distillery. That took us three months to accomplish. The TTB's official interpretation of that law applies to the most extreme examples I could think of. I asked them, for example, if you operated in a large city and were located in a structure of independently owned units stretching over a mile and had a distillery on one end and there was an apartment on the other end (1 mile away) would you be legal. They said emphatically that you would not be permitted.

Will keep you all informed.

No doubt. I'm blown away...speechless. Will post as soon as they get back to me.

They're taking a few days to gather the specifics for us. As soon as they report I'll post all the details. I can tell you that it's a federal law, and not a policy, so you cannot request a variance. They stated that guests could view the bonded premises through a window, but there has to be a floor to ceiling wall between bonded and nonbonded areas--tape on the floor, a walkway, or half wall would not be sufficient. If they decide to enforce this then most brew pubs, all wineries and all distilleries I've been in will be in violation.

We recently were questioned re: our tours and tasting operations by the big guys in Cinci. According to law you cannot have anyone other than employees on your bonded premises. This would mean that your distillery is completely off limits anywhere you have etoh that's not tax-paid--such as your production room, barrel room, etc. This would also mean that every tour i've personally been on at a distillery, brewery, or winery has been in violation. You can have a retail premise, if your state allows, and you can put product there that is tax-paid, but the space must be non bonded. BTW...happy ****ing tax day.

This pertains only to Colorado just thought you would get a kick out of this.

Yesterday I received a notice from the state agriculture department that for the privilege of supporting our local and state producers of grains, fruits, vegetables or anything that comes from the ground including all farm products I must purchase a license to do this. You need to understand that our state has spent hundreds of millions of dollars promoting "Buy Colorado" and the latest program is "Colorado Proud". Now for supporting local made and from Colorado producers they insist I purchase a permit to do this. It also states that if I do not purchase this permit I will be charged with a class 6 felony. This is extortion at its best. It will effect every winery, micro brewery, distillery and any other business that uses farm products. Now the real kicker is I can purchase any and all my grains from another state and not be required to have a permit at all. I purchase my malt from Brees which is processed out of state but is from another state and that is OK. If I decide to purchase malted barley from say Colorado Malts which is a Colorado company I must purchase a permit to do this. So if I purchase the rest of my grains from say Utah, Kansas, Nebraska any other state I do not need the permit. Government run madness. Coop

that's brilliant. what are they charging for the permit?

I hope this isn't a taboo topic, but is anyone here concerned about the increased risks of oral and throat cancer from distilled spirits? I would imagine someone that's continually sampling their products would want to be vigilant about keeping regular check-ups at the Dr office. Any other special precautions?

Here's my 2 cents as a distiller and a MD. Heavy alcohol consumption, especially spirits, is linked to cancer of the esophagus and oral cavity. This is seen mainly in HEAVY alcoholics, not craft spirits tasters. Any alcohol you consume is metabolized by the ctyochrome p450 enzymatic system in your liver (same one used by Tylenol, so don't consume them together). Alcohol is a poison. If you consume a large volume you oustrip temporary capcity of the enzymes and get liver damage. In the short term this will be reflected by an increase in liver enzyme markers, mainly ALT. However, the liver has unbelievable regenerative capacity. Your can remove ~75% of someone's liver, and they should be able to regenerate enough capacity to have normal function. So how much is safe to drink? No one can tell you for sure, but studies have shown enzyme markers usually remain normal if you drink 2-3 drinks per day total (14-21/week). Personally, as a whiskeyphile and product taster, I have no worries about the volume of etoh I'm consuming, which by the way, is less than I remember drinking during highschool in the 80s.

It was extremely painful and expensive for us. And no matter what anyone tells you, the codes require ventilation after you reach a certain amount of on site alcohol volume. There are certain exemptions for alcohol stored in oak barrels.

You may be able to bluff your way past a less concerned inspector, but the laws are on their side and if they don't want to give, they don't have to. We have 6000 sq ft of H3 and as I recall the ventilation system has to exchange 10x sq ft of air in a minute -not exactly sure if thats the number, trying to find it in my notes- either way it's a buttload of air to not only exhaust but to "make-up"! If you're in a warm climate you may not need to heat the replacement air in which case open windows may serve as the "make up" portion. If your city requires heated makeup air as ours did, it can get real expensive. My original contracted quote was about $45k, somehow we ended up at about $28k. We were not required to add backup power, our city plan reviewer took that much pity on us and realized we would be present at all times when running, so decided it wasn't needed. Depending on the size of your space you may be able to find a used restaurant ventilation system for a lot less money.

I agree having a licensed consultant - architect (we used a PE) can be very helpful. When all is said and done, despite the added expense, it is nice to be able to eliminate some occasionally bad odors quickly- especially since we've opened a tasting room, and while short term it brought great headaches and messed with our buildout finances, long term it's a blip.

Good luck!

Most helpful, Guy. Thx for the scoop. We're meeting with the code consultant and architects tomorrow to get the final ruling.

I don't think I've laughed so hard in days! Laughin' Hard - that's what life's about.

You're having these troubles because you need professional help.

I think that when you're walking around with a stupid smile on your face whilst clutching your scrotum, they see you coming (or about to come) and just want to F()K with ya. Chances are good that the fire marshal does not have the national fire code memorized, and is a fireman because he was not paying attention during science class. If you're dealing with code enforcement, you need an architect.

See there, it's easy: Architect trumps Fireman.

Just for sh!#$ & grins, Click Here (California Building Code site - references NFC)

You're the responsible party, so educate yourself...that way, you will lead (instead of being lead - around by your nose).

Will

At this point, I believe our architects are a bunch of pot smokers. We do have an architecture firm and a code consultant working for us. Hey, there's apparently nothing that an assload of $$$$ can't fix!

Just curious. How painful has it been for all you other H-3s out there in regard to ventilation for your "hazardous fumes"? Anyone want to offer up the $ range you found if you were forced to do some ventilation, and did they require you to have a back up power source to run the system... in case your local power station was hit by a meteor and your still somehow decided it wanted to make free alcohol vapor instead of liquid and you just so happened to be touring a group of one hundred sparkler-wielding grade school children?

Also, if you're new to the process of starting a distillery please allow me to make a personal recommendation...buy the steel belted, kevlar Gorilla scrotum protector with 5-point groin harness to protect your tenders from the local building and fire officials. Never take it off. Because after you're finished with them your wife will be next in line!

bryan

I"m looking for input on using a hammer mill vs roller mill for malt barley processing in whiskey. We're looking at both versions. seems like hammer mill is more cost effective and has less maintenance issues. Anyone have experience or thoughts on hammer mills?

thx.

bryan

Contact Andy Davidson at Glencairn for quantity pricing- they sell quantities direct and are pretty reasonable.

andy@glencairn.co.uk

website is here- http://www.glencairn.co.uk/

You can also try cobhthaighceltique.com I've purchased in bulk from them, and they're very reasonable, friendly and fast.

-bryan