Ralph at Tuthilltown

Some brief answers, subject to confirmation by the TTB. There is no reason I know of which requires you to have product before having a facility to make it in. You can seek out some other distiller to produce your formula, work out the kinks and get your sample. This only means that particular formula and the contents of that particicular batch are approved, if anything changes you'll have to resubmit. For Gin or any manipulated neutral spirit you must submit a "quantitative list of ingredients", that is the total amount of all the things you added to the starting base neutral spirit; and it must include the Latin name of any organics, herbs, fruit, grains, whatever you put in must be identified with the percentage of the volume noted. READ THE APPLICATION and the Law. Call the TTB about the Sulfite question. But all these questions could have been answered by a careful read of the Law and the pertinent regulations. Before submitting any further questions, READ THE LAW.

The question you ask is one we all face. Division of labor has more to do with the management team and available cash. No one rule applies. But the more salient question to ask may be: "Will anyone out there share their knowlege gained of managing a distillery, for a fee?" Few of us have had the opportunity to be "shown" what to do, rather we've come through the school of hard knocks and learning on the job. It would be inappropriate to expect any small distiller to simply start laying out a management strategy without expecting to pay for that information. That said, there are some among the US small distillers, our own team included, who offer advice to a point, beyond which there is a fee involved for consulting services and access to our hard earned experience and knowlege. R

The NYS Legislature is considering Senate Bill 2637, which establishes a new license sub-class of the A-1 Distillery License. The text of the bill may be read at the NYS SENATE site, click on BILLS AND LAWS and enter "S2637" and select "Text" to read the bill. The intent of this proposed amendment to NYS ABC Law, permitting shared use of facilities among some classes of distillers is a good idea. However, the proposal is going in the exact opposite direction from that which was agreed among the members of the new NEW YORK CRAFT DISTILLERS GUILD; which is to simplify the law, not further complicate it. The proposed law also does not include shared use of facilities by brewers and distillers, a natural and traditional relationship that greatly improves the probability of success for both the brewer and the small distiller. At the recent first organizing meeting of New York Distillers, it was unanimously agreed the license classes need wholesale revision and a serious haircut down to perhaps three categories. It is also agreed that there should be no distinction made between spirits made of fruit and spirits of grain when it comes to law which governs sale of these products. So the introduction of this very specific and narrowly construed law is premature and ill conceived, though the intent is worthy of merit. New York Distillers should contact their representatives in the NY Legislature and express their concerns and disagreement with the addition of new license classes which further parse out details, limiting them arbitrarily to certain license holders. Ethyl alcohol is ethyl alcohol whether it comes from fruit or grain; and the various types should not be discriminated one against the other. The bill is SENATE BILL 2637. Make the point also there should be no further changes to distillery law till the distillers are consulted and included in the law making process as a group.

AGENDA FOR UPCOMING FIRST MEETING OF NEW YORK DISTILLED SPIRITS PRODUCERS: April 21, 2009 at 10:00am New York Farm Bureau - 159 Wolf Road, Albany, NY 12205 AGENDA 10:00 Greeting and introductions 10:10 Brief welcome – why are we here? 10:20 Discussion of opportunities and challenges facing micro-distillers and development of a list of priorities/goals for the guild 11:15 break 11:30 Organizational discussion /mission statement 1. Mission statement 2. Membership? Type of organization? Bylaws? Board of directors? Voting? 3. Roles and responsibilities 12:30 Lunch 1:00 Discussion of current and proposed spirits regulations in NYS with Phil Giltner from the Dept. of Ag and Markets 2:00 Next steps DRAFT TALKING POINTS FOR MEETING Proposed Mission Statement: The “New York Spirits Producers Guild” is an association which membership comprises New York State licensed producers of beverage alcohol. The mission of the Guild is the ongoing support, development and promotion of small agriculture-based beverage spirits; to engage with New York growers and the State of New York through its agencies, which affect the production and distribution of the products of licensed New York Distillers, Rectifiers, Blenders and Infusers; to develop and propose progressive legislation that will have a positive effect upon Spirits Producers and their agricultural suppliers and help to ensure the successful future for both. Membership: The membership may be of various types including: 1. Full – New York State Licensed distillers, rectifiers, blenders and infusers; this allows for the small infusion operations using NY herbs and other basic materials and GNS to produce products but who do not actually distill the final product. A “Producer” of product made with distilled spirits; 2. Associate – Any other associated party including but not limited to Growers, Development Corporations, Coopers, Shippers, Wholesalers, Retailers, Restaurants, Wineries and Breweries Type of Organization: For now, suggest an unincorporated association with a small steering Committee to vet and propose a slate of Directors. Simple for now. But foresee the need for some sort of formal incorporated non-profit organization coming up quickly. Suggested Board structure: Full voting members of the Board must be producers of product and licensed in New York State under authority of the SLA. At start, suggest: • Three (3) voting Board Members from Guild membership; • One (1) Board seat to a representative from the non-voting Associate Membership, nonvoting, chosen by the Associate Membership, could be a Full Member holding seat for Associate Members but the seat still comes without Board voting right; • One seat for the Guild Attorney, non-voting; • One reserved voting seat for (eventual) Executive Director; • One reserved non-voting seat for (eventual) “President” or “Chair” or “King”, whatever. Voting: Suggest all Full Members have voting rights, one member, one vote in all general issues the Board typically puts before the General Membership. Associate Members have no right of vote on Guild matters, except as a voice in Guild matters in the form of the (non-voting) Associate Representative on the Board.

FIRST NEW YORK DISTILLERS GUILD MEETING: Tuesday, April 21 10:00 am - 4 pm Lunch included FARM BUREAU HEADQUARTERS Albany, NY Agenda being assembled. Contact SARAH CROWELL to put your name on the list of attendees. Her contact info is above in last post. Morning session devoted to Introductions, Discussion, Organization and Draft Mandate' Afternoon may include Legislators and other important Governmental or non-distillers who are valuable to ensuring our success. Ralph Erenzo Tuthilltown Spirits Gardiner, NY

Recesssion-reschmession. Everyone is taking the hit in one way or another. Economic downturns are opportunities for those who do not lose their heads and keep their eyes open. There's no question of a fall off in some sales venues, but there are upturns in others. There is no "will the industry survive?" Of course it will. Who will be left standing is another question altogether. Who will be gobbled up, or fail? For our part the key is innovation and NOT doing anything the same ole' "traditional" way making the same ole' "traditional" alcoholic beverages. Don't be timid, be smart.

NEW YORK DISTILLERS GUILD first meeting tentative date: APRIL 21; location: FARM BUREAU OFFICES, Albany, NY; time: 10am - 4pm, a full day. This information will be confirmed and posted by Sarah who is diligently managing the arrangements. Thanks Sarah.

We were at WOW last year. Nice event. Good attendance, mostly consumers but the right kind, the kind that spend money on good spirits. My son Gable Erenzo will be there representing TUTHILLTOWN SPIRITS for us this year.

New question. In New York State we have managed to amend the Farm Distillery and A-1 licenses to permit the holding of multiple licenses by a single distillery without need of creating separate distinct distillery premises for each licensee; this is permitted for wineries who often hold distiller licenses. It raises the question: If we are putting an upper limit on the production capacity below which a distillery is considered a "micro spirits producer", what happens when a distiller acquires two licenses having different prohibitions and which license annual production capacities are considered cumulative by the State. Example: We hold an A-1 license with an upper capacity annual limit of 35,000 gallons (notably NYS ABC Law does not specify if that means "proof gallons" or "wine gallons"). The recent approval of our Farm Distillery ("DD") license allows us a similar 35,000 gallon (again ambiguous in the law) annual capacity. The law specifically permits the total output of a distillery holding multiple licenses to be the CUMULATIVE total. So our distillery facility now has the right under our license to produce up to 70,000 gallons (we assume proof-gallons) a year. This may imply we need to look at what that "annual capacity" means. Should a single distillery company holding multiple licenses be considered to be multiple "micro distillers", regardless the configuration of the plant or ownership? Comments? Ralph Tuthilltown

A NEW YORK DISTILLERS GUILD is being formed. First meeting arrangements underway. The agenda is not yet finalized. This is a first meeting aimed at organizing, meeting each other and setting out a mandate for the group. Please contact: Sarah Stern Crowell, AICP Project Manager Hudson Valley AgriBusiness Development Corporation 4303 US Route 9 Hudson, New York 12534 518-828-4718 518-828-0901 fax If you have particular issue to suggest for the agenda, please make it known. Ralph at Tuthilltown Spirits Gardiner, NY

NEW YORK DISTILLERS GUILD forming. First meeting coming up. Look for announcement. Meeting will be in Albany at the headquarters of the NY FARM BUREAU. The choice of the venue is deliberate, meant to reinforce the fundamental character of small NY distillers as Agricultural, as opposed to "industrial". We hope all distillers and those applying for permits to distill in New York, in particular those who consider themselves to be Agricultural, "Farm Distilleries" will be there. The agenda is not set. Please consider specific issues you would like to see included. Remember, this is a first meeting, the goal is to come together, meet each other and decide to work together for the common good of our undertakings. For my part, I expect this group to be necessarily politically active and not a singularly promotional partnership looking for discounts and such (though marketing efforts are certainly an important part of the advantages of organizing). For further information about the meeting and get your name on the list, contact: Sarah Stern Crowell, AICP Project Manager Hudson Valley AgriBusiness Development Corporation 4303 US Route 9 Hudson, New York 12534 518-828-4718 518-828-0901 fax See you there, or at ADI out west. Ralph Erenzo Tuthilltown Spirits Gardiner, NY

It's my experience, based on various question and answer exchanges with TTB, the only time the FDA comes into play is when products include additives. For instance, botanicals introduced to spirits must be vetted to ensure they are not prohibited substances. Usually a 750ml sample must be submitted to the Federal Lab, takes about 60 days to get a response, including the LATIN BOTANICAL NAMES (this is required) for each, your formula must be included, it's called a QUANTITATIVE LIST OF INGREDIENTS. The Fed wants to know exactly what you're putting into your spirits if it is outside the standard definitions for simple spirits. When in doubt, ask a TTB representative, forms are on line and most can be submitted over email or downloaded and faxed. . By the way, I'd like to discuss your experiences as a "farm distillery". We are having enormous difficulty with various levels of regulators in NYS, all of whom have a different opinion on our Farm status. We grow rye, which we use to make whiskey. According to the Dept. of Agriculture and Markets our operation is a Farm Use and our products to be Farm Products and our waste stream farm waste or "unrecognizable food waste" which can be spread on the land at "agronomic levels"; but the Dept of Environmental Conservation considers us a "moderately hazardous industrial use" and our waste "hazardous waste". The local building inspector insists we are an industrial use, therefore requiring us to meet all Universal Building Code requirements for our physical plant, this is not a requirement for a Farm. The State recognizes in the law that "fermented products" of a Farm are Farm Products; so under the mixed message interpretations, our land, the rye we grow and the first floor of the distillery where we do fermentation are all farm uses and the mash a farm product, but when we move it upstairs to the stills it moves to an industrial space and becomes an industrial product, the waste becomes industrial waste since it comes from the second floor. It's utterly nuts. My question is, how does the State of Florida recognize your distillery. Is it considered a legitimate farm use, your products farm products; or is the law ambiguous and contradictory as it is in NY and many other states? I will be in Florida in about six weeks and would appreciate an opportunity to visit and meet you. Will be at ADI Conference, perhaps we will meet there. Ralph Tuthilltown

New York Distillers should should check this link: http://www.lawrevision.state.ny.us/PreliminaryReportrv90208.pdf This report gives you an idea what is underway at the NEW YORK STATE LAW REVISION COMMISSION has learned and where it is headed. NOW IS THE TIME, contact your Legislators and demand the State take action to correct the ridiculous policies controlling ag spirits production. The State of NY like every other goverment in the US needs revenue and the success of small agricultural distillers in New York promises a windfall of NEW tax revenue opportunities and still improve the climate and set the stage for a revitalization of our craft in NY. We are calling for Public Hearings on the failure of the SLA and the State to address the problems of producers specifically, including those who grow our raw materials. Please contact your Legislator and make your position clear, this is not about alcohol, it's not about the distributors or the retailers, it's about agriculture, craft, tourism, tax revenue, employment and so much more and those issues must be addressed with the mindset that we will make it work, work well and pay off for everyone, but the SLA is NOT an appropriate regulator of PRODUCTION of Ag spirits in NY. The second point: whether it's micro brewing, farm wine making or ag distilling, the end product is a FARM PRODUCT and should be regulated and supported by the Department of Ag and Markets. Ralph

New York Distillers should should check this link: http://www.lawrevision.state.ny.us/Prelimi...portrv90208.pdf This report gives you an idea what is underway at the NEW YORK STATE LAW REVISION COMMISSION has learned and where it is headed.

This question is better placed and discussed in the "Beginners" string. But to reiterate, READ THE LAW pertaining to the State, in this case California. Any would be distiller has two options when trying to find this type of information: hire someone (usually an overpaid attorney) to do the legwork and advise you; or do your own homework, it isn't rocket science, READ THE LAW. Every state has online regulations and law or can lead you to the proper agency. Aspiring distillery developers without the skills or tenacity to track down this info perhaps should review their other career options. For those who pose questions looking for help here, remember that those who have this info developed it over time and lots of work; these kinds of solicitations are impolite, in the same way as cutting in line at the theatre. Lately some inquiries are asking for such as spreadsheets and templates and actual numbers. Please understand these are proprietary information. You wouldn't ask a total stranger, or a potential business competitor to show you his tax return. R

Thanks Charles. The well known original: "If you see a Buddha in the road, kill him." We respect the cumulative knowlege we all make use of in our craft work. But if we all believe the old Buddhas of whiskey and question nothing of what they do but only continue what "is done" or "what has always been done" the world will not change and we'll make no progress in the craft. Martial arts have the same approach, learn all the rules till they become a part of you, then throw out the rule book do not think, simply "Do".

Please folks, read the actual STANDARDS OF IDENTITY. The storage requirement applies to whiskey. Whiskey stored in used barrels are for instance in the case of bourbon, called "whiskey distilled from a bourbon mash". The same applies to rye or wheat or spelt whiskeys, etc. The law says "STORED" in new charred oak barrels. It does not mention the source of the oak. It does not say you can't reuse them, only that if you call it, for instance "Bourbon Whiskey" it must spend some time in new charred oak; it does not specify how long it must be stored. Conceivably it could be poured into a new barrel, bunged (go have a cup of coffee) then unbunged and poured out and it's bourbon (if it meets all the other criteria). The Scots as well as the French and Italians all reuse barrels. So do we. Old school European distillers store their goods in barrels which have often been used for generations. Some Calvados casks are the size of an Econoline Van and four inches thick oak. They also use our bourbon barrels, they use sherry and port barrels, all to steer the flavors. The law is as important for what it does NOT say as it is for those things which are specified. Read the CURRENT law from the Federal site, not a thirty year old guide to alcohol or your buddy's recollection from his uncle the moonshiner. There is no substitute for experience and we all have the highest regard for those who came before us in the honorable craft of distilled spirits. But this is a new age, the small distillers have an opportunity to do something no one has done in many many years; make NEW whiskeys. Read all the books and web sites, talk to the distillers, learn all the rules, memorize the "box". Then don't think outside the box, burn it and start out with what YOU want to do (within the law of course).

Do not depend upon whatever you've "been told". Go to the TTB site, go to the DISTILLED SPIRITS tab and the Advertising section and read the STANDARDS OF IDENTITY. I don't want to be rude, but this is extremely basic "due diligence", read the law. There is no mention of "aging" or "aged" in the basic requirements. Read about what oak does to alcohol and the effect of stainless steel; how that relates to the "aging" question.

Jonathon is right. Healthy discussion, even disagreement and debate are what this is about. If someone is dissatisfied with the content the choices are: respond or ignore. But better to hear the question, whatever it is, than not. We often get inquiries that are from uninformed or newcomers looking not for guidance but for someone else to do the preliminary work and provide hard info and advice for their startup. We provide what general guidance we can. Anyone who is searching for help to develop their Plan should be reminded, all those here who are operating their facilities and putting out product did so, in the main, from the ground up. For our part, we are not eager to simply hand someone our business plan or estimates for equipment and such out of the goodness of our hearts. This may be the reason why some here respond negatively to what appear to be stupid questions. We like to think "there are no stupid questions", but the fact is, it is not the question itself that is dumb; it is naivete that prompts someone to ask, blind to the fact we have all spent years putting these things together with great effort and expense. So when a newcomer asks a question here, either ignore it or answer it. But no need to berate the asker, or to characterize the discussion as "bickering". It's like the cell phone, if you don't want "to be that available", then turn it off; but don't take a hammer to it. You never know when you might need it. Ralph

The New York State DD Farm Distillery license requires use of 100% New York Agricultural raw materials for production of spirits sold at the Farm Distillery. The license allows for tastings at the distillery as prescribed in SLA regs (max. .25 oz per "taste", max. 3 "tastes" per consumer/visit). And it permits sale of NY State Spirits (made with 100% NY Ag raw materials) made at the distillery and from three other NYS Farm Distilleries. The first line of the law reads: "A Farm Distillery is located on a Farm". Trouble is, there is no definition in NY law for the term "farm". There are various definitions for what a farm must include or the types of productions which are included in a "farm operation", but no actual definition of a "Farm" as a place or entity. The Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) has its definition of what constitutes a "farm operation", which is not the same as that employed by the Department of Ag and Markets. I have recently proposed State shift responsibility for regulation and development of Farm Distilleries, Micro Breweries and Farm Wineries over to the Department of Ag and Markets and away from the SLA, which would continue to manage enforcement of distribution and consumer sales regulations. Another suggestion for NY Legislators is the development of a Farm Alcohol Sales license. The concept would be simple (though I'm sure the SLA will not agree). A farmer growing corn for a whiskey maker could have some of that corn distilled into a whiskey with his farm's brand and sell it at his established, licensed farm stand/market. The grower would not be permitted to sell the alcoholic beverages of any other grower and the stuff he sells must be 100% made from his produce (or in the case of infusions using GNS, made with fruit or herbs grown on the farm). No other alcohol could be sold at that farm. The details would require some security and regulatory oversight, but the result might prove to be a boon to the farmer and the State (increased excise and sales tax revenue); and it would promote the local farms and their produce. The work has begun in NY to form a coalition of small alcohol beverage producers including: growers, distillers, microbrewers, farm wineries, tourism reps and Ag and Markets. The goal is to bring all small production under Ag and Markets and to make a deliberate effort to grow the industry in New York. The timing is right, the State being in such dire need of tax revenue and working very very hard to help small farms survive. If you're interested in joining the effort to form an organized constituency that would speak for our needs as an emerging Agricultural Industry in Albany, contact: Todd M. Erling, Executive Director Hudson Valley AgriBusiness Development Corp. 4303 US Rte 9 Hudson, NY 12534 www.hvadc.org terling@hvadc.org The work begins now.

There is enormous difference between using smoke and mirrors as elements of his craft, and using them to fool the consumer. Using GNS as a base in the pursuit of interesting final spirit products is not dishonest, it's called "innovation" and it is the cornerstone of the American entrepreneurial tradition. The critics' comments about producers making use of gns is disingenuous. Or, perhaps it is merely misinterpreting, but the impression their comments leave me with is they are not attempting to make a living at the spirits production business. It is an easy thing to be an armchair distiller, as easy as it is to be an academic with a firm grasp on theory and no obligation to actually produce a produc t, make a profit, meet a payroll, pay taxes and establish a brand. Distilling is a craft but spirits production need not include distilling to be craft. The critics perhaps have not followed the discussion here on the nature of "craft" as it relates to production of spirits. It is not about the equipment, or about the materials. It's about producing a quality spirit as the result of skills and innovation and taking a risk on the new and different; about putting your own time and money on the line, trial and error, failure, about getting up the next morning and working till the wee hours to get it right. GNS is simply a material. The painter is no less an artist who does not mix his own paint or stretch his canvas. The composer is no less artist because he invents his art on an electronic keyboard. The stonemason organizes his art stone by stone without ever actually creating a single one of them. No progress is made without risk taking, without breaking out of the ordinary, without diversion from the norm. One of the most oft heard comments we receive from our European customers is: "Finally, something new." Whatever any critic may think about "rules" for making whiskey, there will always be those who are proud they are thinking "outside the box". But I say, "There is no box." Ralph Erenzo Tuthilltown Spirits

I am unaware of any "changes" in the SLA application review, except that the woman who used to vet applications has left the SLA and a new person with no previous experience in this work has been given the job. I finally went up there a couple of weeks ago and physically went through the file with her to see what the hold up was and discovered it was merely three or four documents easily acquired, but the confusion kept that news from getting to us in a timely manner. The process, otherwise, seems still unchanged and redundant to the Fed process. This is one of the items high on the list of revisions to NYS ABC law; elimination of redundancy among reporting requirements. Where we're filing Fed forms that do the same thing or better than the State, the State should merely require we copy the State on our Fed reports. We've also proposed: reduction of State Excise Tax for "micro" distillers; adoption of a definition for the "micro spirits producer" and including it as a FARM in Ag and Markets Law; revision of the tax code so spirits are taxed in NY based on "proof gallons", not "wine gallons"; establishment of a new retail license: Farm Spirits Shop license permitting growers to have a portion of their crop made into spirits and permitting that grower to own the brand and sell the product to consumers only at the site of the Farm where it was grown; and the big one: moving all production regulation from the SLA to the Dept of Ag and Markets (all licensing of distilleries and production regulation up to the point it is sold and leaves the distillery, whereupon the SLA regulates distribution as usual). For all, when you speak with your legislators talk about INCREASED TAX REVENUE from NEW source. Talk FARMS and the benefit to farmers of a successfully developed micro distillery industry in NY. Talk JOBS, entry level, not previously existing, employee spending local, employee taxes paid, etc. Talk RURAL ECONOMY improvement. Talk TAX REVENUE INCREASE, oh....did I mention that already? The operative word in Albany right now is: MONEY. How can we HELP the State raise revenue? We pay alot of tax, the excise tax is not the only tax revenue we generate, sales of product generate sales tax, employees pay taxes on their earnings AND spend the money locally, stimulating local economy. Talk TOURISM, clean industry, people do not cancel their vacations they just don't go as far, periods of high fuel prices and bad economy are boons to local and regional tourism. Don't wait, these decisions on revenue are being aggressively pursued now in Albany. We're in a great position to be a welcome new source of tax dollars but we NEED the changes proposed and we definately NEED to be free of the SLA bureaucracy and shifted to AG AND MARKETS where they actually want us to be profitable and in business. Remember, the stated SLA position: "We consider you as legal drug dealers." This is not the kind of agency that will help us to rebuild this rural agricultural industry.

Okay so it sucks, yes it does. The SLA is an underfunded agency. Short staffed. Saddled with the task of enforcing an outdated, cobbled-together law. an intransigent Legislature. So what shall we do? Call your Senator or State Assembly members, call both. Make it clear in the most diplomatic terms possible that the delays you are experiencing are delaying the payment of excise taxes to the State of NY. Tell them that even a modest distillery can generate up to $1million in combined excise and sales taxes in a year. Tell your local Legislator to press the SLA to address your application with haste. Be polite but firm. Remind him that local farmers stand to gain by the sale of their crops to local distillers. Do not give up. If a staff member has no answers politely ask for the next person up the line. Tell your State Representatives the SLA is not the appropriate agency to manage agricultural alcohol production. Production of Farm Products should be in the hands of the Ag and Markets Department, not the SLA. Keep at it. Frustration is a natural reaction, I have it for breakfast, but just you get used to it because I tell you straight out, NOTHING gets done if you stop at the frustration point and do not push past it. Get involved. Call your local State Senator and Assemblyman and get an appointment and go sit right in front of them and carefully express your personal frustration. Make it PERSONAL, how does the problem affect YOU and your staff and their faimlies and the town. How does it affect tax revenue for the State. Tell them you intend to hire locally and pay lots of excise taxes and your employees will spend money locally (and pay sales taxes on it) and that you will be bringing a higher value to the produce of rural local farmers. And you'll draw tourists who will spend money then GO HOME (not requiring any new houses or schools read: higher school taxes). Call the Law Revision Commission and ask for a meeting and go sit down at a table at the Albany School of Law and talk. Sit there in front of the attorneys assigned to do this job and tell them your concerns. But be warned. There are two ways to get this done: Go with SOLUTIONS, not just complaints; Go with suggestions that include INCREASED REVENUE TO THE STATE. It doesn't have to be revenue paid by YOU. In fact of course we want to find ways to decrease the costs of doing business. Brainstorm every way you can turn your Complaints into Suggestions that identify new ways to increase State tax revenue (from outside the industry) while decreasing your tax bill. Find your allies, folks like THE FARM BUREAU. Contact and join your local Farm Bureau, meet the local representative and their Legislative Manager. Remember, almost everything you do you will "make up" because there is no precendent to guide you, it is also likely new to the folks at the SLA, since there have been no small distilleries operating as an industry in New York for the last four generations. So be patient with the SLA, I'm not defending the process or the decisions of the SLA Board, I'm just saying we are a totally foreign entity, without specific regulatory consideration. So we must create it and convince the Legislature its value, and also work with the SLA to develop reasonable, pracitical regulation. And in the current financial climate, any proposal we can make that adds benefit to the farmers, the economy and the State will fall upon more likely sympathetic ears.

Met with four representatives of the NEW YORK STATE LAW REVISION COMMISSION, a Senate Commission looking at revising ABC law in NY, among other laws. Two hour session with two attorneys and two Commissioners. All very astute and open to ideas, quick studies. Started the conversation with the comment they have come to realized the dire state of the regulatory side of the industry, after hearing everyone they speak with say "It's broken." Made the following proposals to the group: . Address the way that distilled spirits are taxed, the amount of the tax and also how it is calculated (wine gallons vs proof gallons); . Eliminate State label approvals process altogether and simply accept the Fed label vetting process and collect the fee; . Establish a Farm Spirits retail license category which permits growers with established farm stands on their farms to sell spirits made from their produce at retail at the farm stand; . Move all responsibility for licensing and regulating all "micro" alcohol producers from the SLA to the Dept of Ag and Markets, keep distribution regulation at the SLA; . Eliminate State of NY tax forms for monthly filings and rely upon the Fed reports for tracking amounts, with simple break out for goods sold out of state Overall the group was receptive and eager to resolve the issue of administering the industry in the 21st Century. They were supportive of creation of a NY Distillers Guild and a coalition of small alcohol beverage producers in NY. Their overriding concern is eliminating obstructions, reduction of paperwork and increased opportunities for the State to collect revenue. Ralph

If you drill a well, be sure to get at least 8-10 gpm output and more than that is better. If you can drill two, do it. But your more important problem is disposal of stillage afterward. It can be sprayed on the land but depending upon where you are located you will be required to show that the land can absorb the nutrients and suspended organic matter you put on it every day, 7 days a week, 50 or so weeks a year. It's a lot of waste material. You will be limited to "agronomic levels" which must be determined by soil tests performed on the land by a certified lab, like Cornell Coop Extension in NY. If you have enough land it may not be a problem. But believe me, the disposal of the water you generate is more problematic than getting enough water to begin with. Check with an engineer familiar with your local code and agronomic applications.