natbouman

Most of my calculations on yield are based on research done on Calvados--so basically, making cider then distilling it. In my limited, small scale experiments I also prefer distilling with the whole fruit mash instead of pressing. Do you have any any rules of thumb concerning weight of apples equaling volume of mash or weight of apples equaling volume distillate? I can't find much information on this type of production.

Thanks treskatz. Do you distill the mash without pressing or filtering?

Apples are the fruit I had in mind. I've read that a drawback to adding enzymes is increased methanol production. Still, I'm interested in creating a mash that is thin enough to distill in a double walled boiler without undue fear of burning.

I'd love to hear from anyone with experience adding enzymes to fruit mashes--whether the experience was positive or not.

All that makes a fair amount of sense. Perhaps a high acid fermentation also helps guide a native microflora fermentation a bit better as well. However, if yeast eat fresh apple aroma chemistry, then how can a good calvados end up with an apple-like aroma? I definitely like the notion of adding heads back to the cidre--makes sense that that might be beneficial as long as one isn't knocking out the yeast before they finish the work. I found it interesting that Domaines Dupont uses 40% acidic apples to make their Calvados whereas other producers use far less--10-20%. Dupont is a pretty forward thinking producer (more new oak than any other Calvados producer, all basse tigue trees, only 13 varieties). I know that Dupont is trying to make a more refined spirit. I think they've succeeded. I'm not, however, the biggest fan of their products. Many traditional Calvados makers age their distillate in huge oak casks that are ancient and no longer contribute much wood to the brandy. Often, they'll age or ferment their cidres in these tonneau so that the cidre will leave tannin behind in the wood which will then transfer to the brandy. I'd guess that wood soaked in aromatic cidre contributes more than just tannin to an aging brandy.

So, I just found this post http://bostonapothecary.com/?p=596 which helped me understand acid's role in the creation of esters in distillation. That was very helpful. So, highly acidic apples could create a distillate that is richer the kinds of esters created in distilling. However, if I want to (as much as is possible) translate the flavor/aroma of the apple over to the distillate do I necessarily want to maximize distillation specific esters? The Bartlett/Williams pear aroma is produced (partly) by a volatile ester found in the fruit. Eau-de-vie made from the Bartlett is quite rich in pear aroma. So, should I be looking for apples that might be naturally high in volatile esters?

I've heard that apple that are high in acid tend to produce a distillate that is harsh and thin with lower aroma. Yet, Cognac producers seem to select grape varieties that are highly acidic as these are "perfect" for distilling. What's the deal? I've been cramming a lot of reading on wine/cidre chemistry into the last few days but have been unable to figure out whether acidic fruits (and I'm particularly concerned with apples) are better or worse for distilling--and more importantly, why they are better or worse.

Awesome. Thanks so much.

Hey Charles, Any book on cidermaking and/or wine chemistry would be great.

Yeah, the only time I've seen eau de vie being used for a brown spirit is Clear Creek's eau de vie de pomme, but since Clear Creek is relatively widely distributed I think it makes an impact. I imagine it would be hard to get producers to come to a consensus. I hope it happens, because I think the marketing advantages would be significant. Hard for a spirit to have an identity if no one is sure what to call it.

I really like the term, "new world" apple brandy. It does seem appropriate. It implies tradition--a heritage--while simultaneously breaking from the old world. One of the issues apple brandy has, IMO, is the handle. In the states, craft distilleries are all calling it different things--"eau de vie de pomme, apple jack," what have you. The kind of customer who is going to pay for premium, aged spirits wants to buy into a community of tastes. If everyone who produces apple brandy in the U.S. calls it by a different name coherency is lost.

ViolentBlue, are you familiar with Westford Hill Distiller? I ask because of your use of the term "new world" apple brandy.

Charles, was wondering what rootstocks you and your partners at the orchard are using? I've got the Andrew Lea book on order now. Any other texts you'd recommend?

Michael Phillips manages to grow apples organically in Northern New England and he mentions some Canadian growers in his book "The Apple Grower." His books focus on producing fresh market fruit, however. Annie Proulx has an advanced/amateur book on making hard cider--with a section on Canadian possibilities. Antonovka and Budofsky rootstocks were developed in Siberia so they are supposed to be quite winter hardy. All the cidre varieties that I'm interested in are from very temperate climates though. I know that many of them are grown by Poverty Lane Orchards in New Hampshire, so it seems like it's possible. Sounds like Charles is having some luck and frustration in Burlington, WI. Charles' information has been very useful for me. Thank goodness this forum exists.

I'm in Northeast, PA. The Endless Mountains region. The soil here contains a lot of clay. The elevation and soil tend to limit vigor, which is part of the reason I'm going with bud 118 (I want free standing trees with a healthy root system). We're close to Binghamton, NY, which is one of the cloudiest cities in the nation. We're not as bad here (13 miles away) but I was more concerned with not having enough sun than having too much. The orchard would be going in on an east-facing slope with some southern exposure, but not a ton. That's interesting about the lower tannin levels because of the climate. I had not known that. I have spent some time in Normandy, gathering what information I could--my French is very poor. My wishlist of varieties is built partly on Charles Neal's book on Calvados, but of course you're right. Most of the producers in his book are also producing cidre (although Neal seemed to pick producers that were at least concerned with Calvados as they were with cidre, and dairy). I pasted part of my list below. My thinking was, grow the apples which are difficult to buy and buy apples from the commercial orchard a couple miles away. I pasted my wishlist below. Varieties I'm interested in most appear toward the top. I'm guessing you think it needs some reworking. Aroma and disease resistance were a factors in generating this list, but they weren't necessarily the primary factors in all cases. I have no experience growing the vast majority of these varieties--so I'm sure it sounds insane that I'm looking to plant them. Ameret Bitter Domaines Bitter Kermerrien Bitter Marie Menard Bitter Pomme de Suie bitter Chevalier Jaune Bitter Deaux Eveque Bitter Doux Joseph Bitter Frequin Blanc Bitter Kingston Black Bittersharp Collaos Bittersweet Dabinett Bittersweet Medaille d’Or Bittersweet Moulin a Vent de l'Eure Bittersweet Moulin a Vent du Calvados Bittersweet Saint Philbert Bittersweet Solage a Gouet Bittersweet Saint Aubin Bittersweet Somerset Redstreak Bittersweet Rousse de l'Orne sweet Saint-Bazyl Sweet Golden Russet Acidic Hewes Virginia Crab Acidic Wickson Acidic Frequin Rouge Bitter Harry Master's Jersey (Port Wine) Bitter Golden Hornet Bittersharp Stoke Red Bittersharp Calard Bittersweet Chisel Jersey Bittersweet Germaine Bittersweet Nehou Bittersweet Pilee (La Pilee) Bittersweet Ashton Bitter Bittersweet Bramtot Bittersweet Court Pendu Plat Bittersweet Fagottier Bittersweet Francois Bittersweet Moulin a Vent Bittersweet Yarlington Mill Bittersweet Bedan Bittersweet Noel des Champs sweet Stoke Alford Sweet Gilpin Sweet Orpolin sweet Esopus Spitzenberg Acidic Frequin Strie Bitter Mettais Bitter Bisquet Bittersweet Ashmead’s Kernel Sweet Clos Renaux Sweet

Right now I'm just a hobby orchardist--growing a few cider and disease resistant varieties. We have have about 9-10 acres that are relatively easy to convert to orchards (small I know). The idea was to take about 5 of those acres and grow hard to find Calvados varieties. The ultimate goal would be to supplant the production of those 5 acres by purchasing easier to find, local apples that would also be suitable (or acceptable) for Calvados/cidre. If the distilling/cidre thing doesn't happen according to schedule, then at least we'd have a fairly unusual crop of apples to sell to cidre/calvados producers. One advantage of the bitters (I thought) was actually lower sugar/flavor ratios. Yes, that's less alcohol (not good) but more flavor in the final product?

Thanks for the reply, Charles. I have 550 trees on bud.118 slated to go in the ground on 2015 but the cultivars haven't been picked for grafting yet (I'm not doing the grafting myself, the nursery is). I love cidre and know a bit about the basics. I had read that bitter and bittersweet varieties are of greater interest to Calvados producers. I must admit, that my knowledge of the science behind this stuff is lacking. For instance, I know what keeving (and the less pleasant sounding French term for that process) is but beyond it stripping nutrients and contributing to a stuck fermentation I don't know much. I'd love to be able to mention the Lactobacillus ecosystem and really know what I was talking about. Is there a book you'd recommend? So, the bitter varieties are useful primarily because of what they do to the fermentation? I had thought that perhaps their tanins or aroma was carried through in the distilling process. I'll definitely look into Parmar.

I'm trying to figure out what makes one apple variety better for apple brandy than another. I know that calvados producers use a lot of different varieties, so there is no one absolute flavor profile. Conventional wisdom (and my personal experience) is that acidic varieties tend to produce a harsher--or shorter spirit. Other than that, I'm not sure what to look for. Calvados producers are generally also producing cider and what's great for cider might not always be the best for Calvados and it's hard to find information that makes a distinction between cider and calvados varieties. Anyone have any knowledge/experience that they are willing to share?

I think I follow your math, but isn't the angel's share typically much higher? I thought it was 10% or more if you're using smaller barrels. Of course, the % of ethanol in the angel's share will fluctuate.