OldSpye

I continue to fail to see how direct-fired still are some sort of bogeyman. There are large commercial distilleries in Scotland (and probably elsewhere) that use direct-fire.

The bottom line is that there's no additional danger, compared to indirect heat sources, as long as a couple of very basic rules are followed - foremost among them being ventilation. Our fire code guy asked us to put an exhaust hood over the still and that was the end of the conversation.

It's really more about where you put it. It's certainly possible to "renovate" a container into a passable, if not perfectly usable, production space. But all the code that goes along with where you park it (so to speak) and how you integrate it into its space are where most of the "gotchas" lie.

For fermenting, I'd go with the 55 gallon barrels over the totes. Easier to clean.

What he said. On stripping runs, pour it in, baby!

And if you need anyone south of north Jersey, please do the same here.

Get an old freezer. Build two copper coils - one for inside the freezer and one for inside a tank. Connect them with hoses to a pump.

Hope it's not serious.

I have to say that I have used HDPE with no issues several times.

But see, that statement doesn't really have any bearing on the concept of "too much isn't good", does it?

Have you ever hosed some spilled gasoline down a storm drain? Did you have any issues?

Ever flush household chemicals down the toilet? Any issues with that?

Lawn chemicals? Fertilizers? Pesticides?

Did any of those things result in "Instantaneous Three-Headed Syndrome"?

No, of course not. Because you, all by yourself, doing those things, don't have any particular impact on the overall picture save some minuscule, immeasurable contribution.

But here along the Jersey Shore we can be pretty sensitive to how tiny little things impact our lives and the greater ecosystem. The current plight of the coastal estuaries serves as a living (or not) reminder of that, every day.

So to me, such is the tale of plastics. Yeah, I know that drinking something that's spent part of its life in an HDPE barrel is, in itself, undoubtedly innocuous. But I'm also pretty certain that our constant exposure to long-chain polymers on a massive scale isn't beneficial in the long run. So I make the simple choice to avoid using them, wherever possible.

It's not fodder for debate. It's simply a personal choice.

I am also interested--- in scientific facts

HDPE at low temperature and low ABV where is the problem other than "in the mind"?

If you're focused on scientific fact, you won't get any from me (in this case, anyway).

Yeah, I'm usually one of the first guys to trot out studies and equations to support any argument but in this case it's just my gut. My gut tells me that there are too many polymers in our lives and I don't feel compelled to contribute to that.

Historically, distillers have fermented in wood. The advent of shiny, expensive stainless steel is a relatively recent thing. Regardless of the merits of science, one of the reasons I'm in this game is to support traditionalism. So, I'm Good With Wood.

Anyone know the mechanics of Tuthilltown's solera system?

First wine in boxes, now whiskey, what's this world coming to.

The problem is the calculus of making a box versus a barrel. While the box is less labor and significantly less technique, the raw materials required to build a box are significantly more expensive than to build a barrel, why? Staves are relatively easy to source based on the geometry of a log, planks are not, planks will be much more expensive.

Looking at white oak, 8/4ths thickness, the material to make an approximately 53 gallon container are going to be near $150us. That's just the oak, and that is in volume pricing. Add the labor and any external banding and you'll quickly be near $300. Not even taking into account the time associated with kilning or aging.

A straight sided 6 or 8 side container might be bit more economical, but now you've got much more complex joinery involved. The 4 sided container could be very easily constructed with gross dovetails and captive heads using inexpensive machinery. Going 6 or 8 sides is going to rely significantly more on the external banding for strength.

I have a beautiful Stickley chest of drawers, it's wonderful, quarter sawn oak, dovetails to die for. You think the TTB would let me wheel that into my place and fill the drawers with whiskey?

So this is kinda sorta the idea I've been kicking around for a while. Not a fine piece of Stickley, obviously... But something along the lines of an "aging cabinet", where the charred oak surfaces that contact the spirit could be easily replaced.

With all due respect, that word "barrel" does not appear anywhere within the body of TTB regulation.

They say, in every instance, "oak container(s)".

The engineer / problem solver in me tells me that the core issue here is the barrel, itself.

Barrels, as containers go, are an ancient solution - initially crafted because woodworking technology and materials were generally primitive. The shape itself is a solution to a contemporarily non-existent problem.

Perhaps the solution is to devise a way to inexpensively turn out oak containers that aren't actually barrels.

I can understand the open fermenters, but I still don't understand why to use a material like wood, negatives seem to outweigh positives unless you are weighing tradition significantly (I can appreciate that).

Tradition is a big part of it.

The alternative, if you're going open to keep the cost down (among other things) is plastic.

Plastic scares me. On any level. Plastic is Bad.

so, not a concern for contamination?

Hey, flavor's flavor, right?

But no, it's not really a concern. Any pathogens that make it from the fermenter into the kettle are going to be subjected to morbid levels of heat, then subsequently further destroyed in a high proof alcohol solution.

As to residual bacterial contamination of the fermentation vessel itself, there are two ways you can approach the issue. One is to hit the wood with a lightweight steam cleaner after every cycle (which is also good for the wood, keeps it nice and tight) or you can just rinse it out with a heads solution (which will enhance the next fermentation).

Old school. It's what we're all about.

Traditional "lautering" of corn is a losing proposition. If you're going to use corn, you pretty much have to distill on the grain.

Mill your corn waaaay down - almost to flour. Then reduce the grain ratio in your mash. You'll find that your yields don't go down all that much and you'll be able to distill on the "grain" without wrecking your steam coils.

The only other option - and this falls into the "sorta kinda works" category - is to operationalize a mash bill that's just over the bourbon limit (51%) and use cracked rye & malted barley in your mash tun in higher ratios. You'll have to "step infuse" your grains so that the sach temps are correct - corn, then rye, then barley - but you'll be able to lauter that 3 grain mix in your mash tun with somewhat better success. The last recommendation in this method would be to cook your grains at well under the 15 barrel capacity of your mash tun and then quickly sparge water the crap out of it.

And remember, with corn, the longer you leave it sit in the water, the more it's gonna be concrete.

if you wish, keep me posted on your progress toward a still. I'm having mine custom built by a coppersmith in Cape May. I can refer you to him, for a little of that "down home" craftsmanship.

What do you do about fruit flies and other vectors with open top fermenters?

Run 'em.

Fair enough.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a liquor store that doesn't do POS via scanner/bar code.

Isn't Bulleit made with GNS from MGD?

It's easy enough to tile the floor once all the drains have been plumbed.

There's no reason why a retail purchaser should request Form W-9 unless they're a business. If that's the case, you can download the form here.

I think Roger is pretty much spot on. Our F1 distilling space is being considered incidental to the remainder of the building, which is warehouse space. In talking to the local zoning and code enforcement folks, they seem more than amenable to a tasting room (although it's not in our Y1 plan), leveraging the notion of incidental use.

Some states are rich in wild honey, Washington for example. Seems to depend how heavy the agriculture is.

Was the Polish spirit sweet or dry? Was it all honey base? Proof? Name?

My apologies, I lost track of this thread for a while.

It was pure honey-based. No label (homemade). And it was pretty dry, overall. The essence of the honey was subtle but easily detectable - it nosed like honey but didn't overwhelm the palate.

I'm super-interested in ultimately bringing this to market in NJ. I can get the honey in sufficient quantities to turn out maybe 50 cases a month. The ingredients cost would be about $4-5 per bottle (750 ml), so it wouldn't be cheap. I think at those volumes it would definitely be a specialty commodity and as such could command a pretty stiff price.

But damn, it's good.