Mule-powered corn planting on Short Mountain

[Christian]

The mules are getting ready to plant our organic corn crop up on Short Mountain in Tennessee.

[Scott @ Twenty2Vodka]

I'm kind of at a loss of words.

Is it neat? Sure.

But efficient? Please.

Honestly now, what do you charge per bottle???

[KBFreeRange]

Christian, I love it! You're taking the no-GMO, no-Monsanto, no-eColi-bred processing aids to its most basic expression. More power to you! There will always be those that "don't get" this level of attention to detail, or involvement in all aspects of the business for that matter, but rest assured that others will, and they'll be your best customers. Profit margins are what you determine them to be, efficiencies are what you program them to be, and there are plenty of folks that are willing to pay (more) for products made in a way that has real benefits and integrity.

[Scott @ Twenty2Vodka]

There will always be those that "don't get" this level of attention to detail, or involvement in all aspects of the business for that matter, but rest assured that others will...

No better way to convince those that "don't get it" by explaining that "some just won't get it" rather than offering why "I should get it".

In case my position wasn't clear, I distill as a business first. And as a business person, I cannot imagine the price the final bottle would have to go for, if horse feed and 10x the amount of time to plant a field were a factor.

Sometimes, it's okay to embrace technology. It's not always bad.

And isn't E-coli present in all animal feces? http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/organic/msg0516235216224.html

At any rate, good luck with the harvest and your passion. I'd still really really like to know what you charge per bottle.

-Scott

[KBFreeRange]

My apologies to any that were put off by my "those that don't get it" comment. I too run a distillery as a business. I am passionate about what we do, and how we do it, but it's a business and it needs to meet certain performance goals for it to remain viable.

We are a Certified Organic Distillery, so we get questions every day about how and why we do things. Many of those questions revolve around doing things "the new way" VS "the old way". Don't get me wrong, I'm not some anachronistic character that condemns all that is new, but we do look at all viable solutions to how we do business and choose what feels right for us ethically, and what fits within our organic certification.

Going organic, and using only organic grains was a no-brainer for us. Yes, these grains are twice the cost of conventional, but we avoid supporting a form of agriculture that dumps millions of tons of pesticides and herbicides into the ground and onto the food that people will eat. The fact that distillate made using conventional grains has no pesticide/herbicide residue in it doesn't enter into it. Buying grain that is produced by polluting the environment is not a viable long-term business option for us. It delivers cheaper grain in the short term, but promotes the development of stronger and more radical chemicals to control the weeds/pests as they grow resistant to the poisons we apply today. It has outcomes that will need to be paid in the future.

My comment regarding E. coli was in reference to the use of this bacteria, and other biologic organisms, to create proteins and enzymes through recombinant DNA manipulation, and the use "sewage sludge" as a fertilizer for foods grown for human consumption. The organic rules are pretty simple on this - if it grows on poop, or was grown using poop, it's off limits. Don't confuse sewage sludge (poop) with the use of sterilized manure - they are two very different things. Some of these rules - don't put poison on your food, don't put poop in your mouth - would seem to be easy to grasp, yet technology tells us that now they are OK, or at lest they are OK when they tested it in the lab under a set of conditions that would be impossible to recreate anywhere other than in a lab.

Not to go on and on... I took the image of the plow and mules as a symbol of not discounting traditional methods just because they are old. While I don't have plans to plant and harvest any of our organic grain by horse and plow, it is an interesting experiment to see what's possible to achieve using older technology, and it makes a statement about a company's overall approach to business. It makes a hell of a PR opportunity as well, which would be a positive to any business, organic or conventional.

For every decision we make there are many options and outcomes, some easy to see and some not to easy to see. Sometimes we do things because they just "feel right", even if they are more expensive. Business rules would probably demand that small distillers make vodka using NGS from a big ag company because it makes the business more profitable and conserves resources. I am certain that people could buy spirits made in China for a fraction of what we (small distillers) sell them for, probably for less than what we can MAKE them for. Buying local, making things in small batches, family businesses, doing it "by hand", these are all ideas that are not new and many of them fly in the face of making good business sense. But these are the things that set us all apart from the Smirnoffs and contracted refractories or the world, and that's why people want to support us.

KB

[Christian]

KB, thanks for the compliment. We love what we do

Scott, we won't have product available until the end of the year or early next year. It's a fortunate problem to have, but we haven't figured out how to price and bottle something like farmers wanting to help us. We're humbled and hope you enjoy seeing that slice of America as much as we do.

[Bastian]

Buying grain that is produced by polluting the environment is not a viable long-term business option for us. It delivers cheaper grain in the short term, but promotes the development of stronger and more radical chemicals to control the weeds/pests as they grow resistant to the poisons we apply today. It has outcomes that will need to be paid in the future.

Excellent talking points KBFreeRange. It seems easy to forget this simple fact, that land & farms will be made barren as we continue with this model. Medium size farms seem to be just about as efficient as large farms. Sadly though, in efforts to commodify 'Organic,' it seems most folks have no idea that this isn't just about what we consume, but equally, the soil and plants.

Christian, it reminds me of a small french vineyard where only horses can fit between the delicate vine rows. Those horses are equally represented in the employee list.

[Scott @ Twenty2Vodka]

...it is an interesting experiment to see what's possible to achieve using older technology...

KB, thank you for participating in a rational discussion. You make some solid points, and I support your right to approach your business however you see fit. Innovation occurs with taking risks, and blazing trails, and I agree there are a portion of people out there who are currently looking for organic/natural/local products. However, the above statement baffles me. It seems to me that this very same experiment was practiced until James Watt or John Deere made a better way possible. There isn't a ministry of mechanized farm equipment that dictated "abandon ye horse". Consumers voted with their feet and their wallets, and in return could do more while consuming less hours of their day/life. To replace what really is a tiny component of the overall process with something soooooo archaic, just does not register for me.

Christian, I'm curious to how deep this au naturel philosophy is influencing your overall process. Are you going to harvest by hand too? Are you going to grind by hand/animal power/water wheel? How are you heating your mash and distilling? Did you cold work the copper equipment into an alembic still? Is it the story that these things occurred that's most important, or is there an expectation that the results will really be superior to the 2011 way of doing things?

Thanks!

-Scott

[Christian]

Scott, thanks for your interest in how we do business. If your curiosity is made worse by a Google search of our company or the individuals involved, please accept my invitation to come visit when we're done building the distillery. You are welcome to stay in one of our cabins if you can stand not having power or running water.

[KBFreeRange]

If you use any of the enzymes produced through propagation of aspergillis niger (black mold) then you are using "old technology" whether you know it or not. The process for cultivating aspergillis niger to the ends of harvesting elements like citric acid and many food processing enzymes in common use until the 60s dates back to 1917. Gluco and alpha amylases are both included in this group. The use of enzymes that are the production of cultivating genetically modified organisms may be marginally more effective for distillation, but the use of these materials is banned for food production in much of the world and its biological waste stream is unsupervised. And because bio-tech companies only conduct testing on their products FOR THAT PRODUCT'S SPECIFIED PURPOSE the impacts of these elements entering the environment are unknown. After all, Dupont has deflected law suits for decades by stating that Teflon in not intended to be ingested and thus when it winds up in people's bodies through contact with everything from Telfon coated pans, Goretex coated garments and Hurculon coated sofas they are not at fault. Not all technologies are bad, most are not, but it pays to delve as deep as you have the time to, as what you make will come into contact with folks in an indiscriminate way, and you can't count on suppliers to disclose all skeletons in their closets.

The "New Tech" guys that bio engineer seeds seem to forget the Irish Potato famine that we learned about in school. Seems that having genetically identical seed stock has its risks, not to mention that to get them to grow you have to buy into a whole program complete with pesticides and herbicides and soil conditioners, all of which have been the beneficiary of the same kind of one dimensional, shoddy testing as Telfon. We all should be scared that an handful of bio-ag companies control more than 50% of all germplasm (seed stock) in the world.

Labor saving devices are great, and I'm all in favor, but nature's technology is nothing to sneeze at. We can't create anything really new, only modify what exists to meet our ends, usually with no idea of the outcome and with no commitment to take care of the aftermath if there is one.

Wow! Too serious a conversation for a posting board, so my apologies!

On a more basic note, I collect vintage whiskey, have a few bottles even dating back to the late 1870s. Lots from the teens on through the 40s and 50s. Some of it, especially pre-war bourbon, is unbelievably good. I'm working to discover the old technology approach to the making of these whiskeys. If I can figure that out then we'll really have something.

I guess that in the end I'm a believer in making the most informed decisions that you can, and for trying to maintain a common sense balance between profit and making the most responsible decisions possible.

KB