Enolmatic single bottle vacuum filler, what micron is sifficient to polish gin?

[needmorstuff]

Been using one for a good amount of time, convinced myself i was using 0.2 micron filter. Good level of polish with my clear gin, no complaints.

Just received my new 0.2 micron filters and the enolmatic doesn't have the suck to pull liquid through it.

I have disposed of the old filter and my online account with the supplier does say 0.2 micron. But i recall that if i flushed water down the center of the filter it flowed throw it.. with the new 0.2 micron it holds water. Leading me to believe I have never been using 0.2 micron filters.

I am trying out a new filter as the tandem filters are costly, this new filter is 1 micron and i can see particles floating around in the bottled product. 

Is 1 micron sufficient for a polish? maybe all 1 micron filters aren't created equally if this new one is allowing particles through.

[Beach Time]

Filtration can turn into a really big rabbit hole and so this is brief and general.  there are depth filters (wound or spun fibers) and absolute membranes (like a really fine mesh screen).  For bottling I use a 1 micron depth filter, it is high-flow and does not bog-down the filler.  When I need a true polish I use a 0.45 micron absolute membrane filter.  Only in extreme cases I will use a 0.20 micron absolute membrane and these are very expensive.  If you paid less than $100 for that element it is not absolute.  If you are truly seeing visible particles, (not haze) then either the filter is dirty on the clean-side, not seated properly with leakage around the element or it is coming post-filter from the bottles fill-spout or?

[needmorstuff]

it's not haze.

filters wound type.

filters are new

i have even put 2 x 1 micron in series both new and still see tiny particles.

 

I have come from the tandem filters that are around 70 euros, to the current ones, more like 8 euros. but the supplier assures me they have hundreds of active deployments using them. I will give them another chance using the same cheap filters but 0.5 microns. if that still isnt good enough i will send them back and try the tandem 1 micron.

tandem https://www.polsinelli.it/en/filter-cartridge-1-micron-P825.htm

cheap ones, the one on the left on the first page https://29bcd367-591c-4c51-86e8-9dc723c6a5ae.filesusr.com/ugd/38e733_9eac9ae48db14bc0a4a92ff9096c1e3b.pdf

[PeteB]

9 hours ago, needmorstuff said:

…………..….. But i recall that if i flushed water down the center of the filter it flowed throw it.. with the new 0.2 micron it holds water. Leading me to believe I have never been using 0.2 micron filters.

 

I recall an experiment at university 50 years ago to demonstrate surface tension of water. A very fine filter with a vacuum on it would allow air to move very easily through it, but wet the filter and the vacuum pump could not pull air through the filter.

If this could the problem with a fine wet filter you need to manually fill the housing with liquid then it should work.

[needmorstuff]

10 hours ago, PeteB said:

I recall an experiment at university 50 years ago to demonstrate surface tension of water. A very fine filter with a vacuum on it would allow air to move very easily through it, but wet the filter and the vacuum pump could not pull air through the filter.

If this could the problem with a fine wet filter you need to manually fill the housing with liquid then it should work.

I'll try that immediately and report back!

[needmorstuff]

nope didn't work.

[Beach Time]

17 hours ago, needmorstuff said:

it's not haze.

filters wound type.

filters are new

i have even put 2 x 1 micron in series both new and still see tiny particles.

 

I have come from the tandem filters that are around 70 euros, to the current ones, more like 8 euros. but the supplier assures me they have hundreds of active deployments using them. I will give them another chance using the same cheap filters but 0.5 microns. if that still isnt good enough i will send them back and try the tandem 1 micron.

tandem https://www.polsinelli.it/en/filter-cartridge-1-micron-P825.htm

cheap ones, the one on the left on the first page https://29bcd367-591c-4c51-86e8-9dc723c6a5ae.filesusr.com/ugd/38e733_9eac9ae48db14bc0a4a92ff9096c1e3b.pdf

Try the cheap ones.  The pleated filters will more likely require a higher pressure to push the liquid through.  When I use absolute filters it takes 3-5 Bar of pressure, you can not achieve this with vacuum.  I have to polish filter with a pump separately and then later run the bottle filler with a cheap depth filter.

[needmorstuff]

I have had a good polish using the inline filter from tandem in the past, but I am just having a hard time undertsanding what micron rating the filter was as my order history states 0.2 micron yet the replacement 0.2 micron filter i have today isn't working.. maybe my enolmatic vacuum filler isn't pulling a good vacuum anymore due to age, degraded seal, hose fitting etc.. and this degraded vacuum is enough for the 1 micron cheap filter.

as a last effort i will try find a 0.5 micron cheap filter to see if that is a happy medium, something like these - I am just not sure yet if they are suitable for my housing or rated for alcohol.

I have a 10" clear housing https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1077/6220/files/28_Series.pdf?1342048788503970907

maybe these will work?

https://trademarkaquatics.co.uk/product/10-spectrum-wound-pp-sediment-filter-0-5-micron/

https://www.andrewswater.co.uk/aqua-cure-10-wound-polypropylene-sediment-filter-0-5-micron

Failing that I will have to do as you and go tank to tank filtration. 

[Silk City Distillers]

Why not just do your final filtration on the pump to bottling?  

The filter on the bottling line is nice to have, sure, but it's more like insurance vs. production filtering - taking care of any stray dust or particulate that might have made its way into the spirit prior to bottling.

[PeteB]

It might pay to check if your Enolmatic is pulling enough vacuum. 

Over the years the seal in the tapered filler neck of my machine has worn out a couple of times.

Another problem was a crack in the plastic nipple on the top of the pump housing case where the hose fits, it looked fine but was broken almost completely off.

Occasionally I find bottles with a small projection from the glass in the neck where the rubber filler head attempts to seal. Very frustrating as I swapped several parts from another machine and the problem was still there. Found a few more bottles on the same pallet with same problem.

[needmorstuff]

thanks Pete - very useful info from you there. I will perform some more diagnostics based on your first hand experience.

[needmorstuff]

the lid to the overflow is definitely leaking air, so i bypassed it.

the pump connector seemed lose so i glued it

the filling nozzle got a good cleaning with spirit and I used a few wraps of ptfe

still doesn't pull a good enough vacuum.

I think I have to admit defeat on this one and stop wasting time and buy a new unit.

I can't wait to get into a bigger place after trade pics up again - I will probably go with a gravity filler as they seem so much simpler! get a pump and inline filtration and rather than chasing vacuum faults if there is an issue it should be easier to track down as presumably there will be a leak. The new vacuum filler i buy can serve as a backup.

Mori seem to have a good reputation, I have emailed them to see if they have a distributor in the UK. 

[needmorstuff]

updates...

the double open ended 1 micron filters i was sold are not absolute, i.e they are crap. The manufacturer themselves states that they are so crap they shouldn't be used below 30 microns. I have sent them back for a refund.

I have since discovered the human eye can't see anything below 30 microns.

I have purchased 1 micron absolute filters from another supplier that are about £15 each so will see how they go.

I have also purchased a new enolmatic filler so can use that for troubleshooting the old one and have a spare machine once I have found the fault with my current machine.

[MichaelAtTCW]

On 4/29/2020 at 1:18 PM, needmorstuff said:

updates...

the double open ended 1 micron filters i was sold are not absolute, i.e they are crap. The manufacturer themselves states that they are so crap they shouldn't be used below 30 microns. I have sent them back for a refund.

Just a note for future distillers reading this: just because a filter is not absolute rated, does not mean it is crap. Filters generally come in two flavors: "absolute rated" and "nominally rated". They each have their place in filtration.

Absolute-rated filters are generally high efficiency, meaning that if they say they filter 1 micron particles, they filter over 99.999…% of 1 micron particles. However, they typically also have low "dirt-holding capacity". They clog quickly, in other words. They are also typically quite a bit more expensive, particularly if they are food-grade, made with high-quality components, and usable in food & bev production.

Nominally-rated filters may still be relatively high efficiency. They might filter up to 99% of particles up to a given micron size, but  they still can't be called absolute filters. Doesn't mean they're junk, though.

Nominally-rated filters are typically used for pre-filtration, particularly if the user has an absolute-rated filter downstream that they don't want to clog up (absolute-rated filters are typically more expensive, after all). Still, many distillers purchase nominal "pre filters" from us and use them as their only filter with great results. Graver's QMC and GFC are both good examples of filters that are not absolute-rated, but do a great job of filtering out any visible particles at 0.6µ, 1.0µ, or even 5µ.

To add to the confusion, "nominal" and "absolute" are not regulated terms. One manufacturer's "absolute" may be another manufacturer's "nominal". That's why it's generally good to find a manufacturer that makes good filters that get the job done for you. Obviously, we recommend Graver, though there are certainly other well-regarded brands with food & bev lines.

Quote

I have since discovered the human eye can't see anything below 30 microns.

This is true, but it also depends on the particle count. You can see anything that small individually, but you can definitely see aggregate particles smaller than 30 microns if they're present in sufficient quantities. They'll appear as haze or cloudiness. That's why customers looking for "Bud Light" brightness typically need to filter down to 1-10 micron, sometimes smaller.

[needmorstuff]

agree with all that.. indeed the nominal i have been using from tenco in the past is nominal and did a great job.

The nominal i got from a new supplier are crap.

I am trying yet another supplier who says they are absolute but for £15 i am suspicious! let's see.

Further update - the new enolmatic i got was damaged in transit (air filter broke off and pump mouting plate bent) - but it did allow me to test my current 0.2 micron tenco filter - the new enolmatic it wont pull through it, so it seems that in the past they have been sending me something other than 0.2 and when they did actually send me 0.2 the enolmatic doesnt have the suck to pull through it,

New filters is 1 micron so hopefully will filter correctly and work with enolmatic. 

What a fiasco!

open question - vacuum or gravity for a 4 spout filler?

[MichaelAtTCW]

Yep, as you stated in your original post, not all 1µ filters are created equally. Generally speaking there's nothing to stop one manufacturer from branding a filter as 1µ even if it is only 80% efficient at 1µ. While another manufacturer might only brand a filter 1µ if it's >98% efficient at 1µ. There is even inconsistency within the same manufacturer between their high-end filters and low-end water-type filters (the higher-end filters are generally higher efficiency, and more rigorously QA'd). That's why it helps to look at spec sheets, if available. Like the one attached here. It states the efficiency of the filter (95%, in this case) and the "Beta Ratio", which shows its efficiency at two different ranges. E.g., the 1 micron filter is 95% efficient at removing 1µ particles and 99% efficient at removing 6 µ particles.

graver-qmc.pdf

[needmorstuff]

spec sheets - if only! I struggles to find one for the tenco filters but my supplier sent through that the nominal are 99.9% efficient.

@MichaelAtTCWwhat is you opinion on fillers? moving from a single spout to 4 spout - is it better to move to gravity? or go with something like enolmaster. I'm just after opinions is all.. as it's an expensive mistake to fix after purchase.

[MichaelAtTCW]

We sell the Mori Gravity Filler, and have for a long, long time, so I'm biased. We used to sell the Enolmatic/Enolmaster a long time ago, but became frustrated with Tenco in Italy, who either make or distribute them (I can't recall which). They were not particularly responsive to issues we were having with the filler, and lead times were really bad.

Around the same time Mori released their filler and we liked it a lot, so we focused on that, and have sold many of them since.

In terms of which is better, I think gravity is simpler and makes more sense, and I've spoken with a number of customers who feel the same way after moving from an Enol filler to a Mori gravity filler. That said, I've read a number of accounts on this forum from people who are perfectly happy with their Enol. Most of the frustrations with Enol fillers I've seen are from people unhappy with how the filter is setup (and I don't blame them, it's pretty goofy, in my opinion).

[needmorstuff]

thanks Michael, I will check some videos on gravity fillers as I don't fully understand how they work.

[MichaelAtTCW]

Here's a video I took a while back. Should be pretty straightforward. The bottle seals against the nozzle cone, which pulls back the outer sheath. Liquid flows via gravity until the fill hole is covered. At that point, gravity and atmospheric pressure in the bottle are balanced, and no more liquid will flow.

 

[needmorstuff]

Hehe, I'd already just watched that. You are famous.

When the bottle is full and removed does the bottle fill up a smidge more? Or once full does the filler line drain down into the holding tank until a new bottle is introduced?

[MichaelAtTCW]

It doesn't fill up a smidge more when removed when the bottle is removed, no. The filler works by displacing air in the bottle with liquid from the reservoir. When the bottle is full there is nowhere else for liquid to go. No more air to be displaced. The liquid in the reservoir just stays in the reservoir. When you pull the bottle off, the outer sheath snaps back in place and covers the hole. There isn't enough time for liquid to find a new path into the bottle. I imagine if you pulled the bottles off verrrrryyyyyyy slowly it could fill a smidge more, but a user with marginal-to-average dexterity will have no issues.

Same as with a vacuum filler. If you pulled it off very slowly it would fill a smidge more until the nozzle clears the bottle, but it's never an issue. The nozzle springs back into place too quickly to make any difference.

[needmorstuff]

Thanks Michael, all the other suppliers I ask about fillers push me toward the enolmaster so it's good to have a balanced opinion on the matter.

[needmorstuff]

I am at the end of my tether with filtering now :-)

I have now received 1 micron absolute rated filters for my 10" housing and I can still see dust in my finished product. I just don't understand how i can be possible with the filter being the last thing in the chain.

I am starting to question my sanity.

[Silk City Distillers]

Do you rinse before running?  We'll usually rinse new cartridge filters with a couple of gallons of RO water, then drain the housings.  Caveat - we do final proofing after filtration, so the small amount of water trapped in the filter is accounted for.  We don't rinse with spirit, for us it seems dramatically wasteful, especially for aged product where it means we lose a few precious bottles.  The filtration we use during bottling is only to protect against stray dust or particulate that may exist in the tanks/lines during bottling.  Really just "insurance" filtration for bottling quality only.

If you didn't want to rinse with water, I could imagine a workflow that filters back to the original tank for a few minutes, before filtering through, this would allow any trapped dust or particulate to be returned back to the filtering tank, instead of into the final product.

Still though, I'd be worried about any particular off-flavors from the unrinsed carts.