specialty malts?

[Shindig]

Has anyone used specialty malts (carmel/chocolate etc..) as part of their mash bill? I am wondering how that changes the flavor of the end product. I know they are used in beer all the time but do not know if the flavor will carry over in distilling.

[Natrat]

I've tried it, and IMHO it's not worth the expense. With the possible exception of using some crystal or caramel malt. Depending on how much of your malt bill you are talking. And totally without value (again, IMO) if you are doing anything but a 100% barley mash.

But, you know what they say about opinions!

[Jake Holshue]

I have added both black malts and crystal malts to a mash bill. It totally comes through flavor wise, and worth the time to experiment with to make a straight forward mash more complex and interesting.

[Lenny]

Try it and see how it works for you.

We use a good bit of specialty malt in our malt whiskey grain bill. I can tell you that it definitely comes through in a big way - both in the new make and after 1+ years in new oak.

Big guys like Glenmorangie toss in specialty malt also.

[Shindig]

Any hints on what percentage you would need to make the flavor come through and not be overwhelmed by the other grains (corn/rye)? 5%? 30%?

[Lenny]

Something I like to do when working though how much of a new ingredient to include in a recipe... start with a conservative'ish amount (in this case, maybe 10%). Mash/ferment/distill/evaluate.

If the addition doesn't seem overwhelming, start again and add double or even triple the new ingredient amount. Mash/ferment/distill/evaluate.

If needed, start again and completely omit the new ingredient. Now you've got 3 variations to blend for the flavor profile you're after, and hopefully give you more insight into how much of an impact the new ingredient will have in your grainbill.

There is a lot of specialty grain that can be incorporated. Play around - Make something that tastes totally different than anything you've ever had before - that's the best part of what we do!

I will say that in my production, upwards of 10% chocolate malt started to get a bit too acrid for what I was after. Also, keep in mind that most specialty malts usually don't contribute too much in the way of fermentable sugars.

[nabtastic]

Lenny - Shouldn't the sugars present in the specialty malts be roughly equivalent to the potential sugar from unmalted grains?

[Lenny]

Lenny - Shouldn't the sugars present in the specialty malts be roughly equivalent to the potential sugar from unmalted grains?

I'm no expert on malting and/or specialty malt production, but here's my understanding... when malt is kilned to create crystal malt it's brought up to temperatures commensurate with a scarification rest (the temp that converts starch to maltose). So allowing the malted barley to sit at temps in the mid 100's will cause each kernel to act like a miniature mashtun and then caramelize the a small amount of sugar with the higher heat used to produce the various levels (lovibond) of the crystal malt. The caramelized sugar inside each kernel is then rendered *less* fermentable.

Maybe someone with a more extensive brewing background (Nick, Todd?) could weigh in to either qualify or debunk this.

[nabtastic]

hmm, that actually makes quite a bit of sense. I'll read through some brewing books to double check, but that sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation. Thanks for clarifying.

[Natrat]

That's pretty much right on, actually.

Caramel and crystal malts are very similar. The difference lies in how they are produced. When I visited Baird Malting, they sprayed water into the drum where they were kilning the crystal malt. The tech explained to me that the water dissolved the free sugars in the malt, and the resulting liquid evaporated during the process, leaving sugars crystallized on the outside of the hull. Hence the "crystal" name.

When I visited Briess, they started by making a slurry of malt in water, and then dewatered it before kilning. Caramel malts, so I understand, are partially converted before kilning, and the entire acrospire is caramelized to some extent.

The malts are heated enough to go through a Maillard reaction as well as a pyrolysis, and while some simple sugars are liberated, much of the the starch (amylose and amylopectin) is rendered unconvertable. A lot of the desired effects of caramel and crystal are created by the large amount of unfermentable sugars (such as xylose and raffinose and lactose) that are created by this. Mouthfeel and sweetness are the main reasons to use large amounts of these. The darker it is kilned, the higher the Lovibond, but the lower the sugar content. That's why a lot of brewers will use high proportions of C20 or C40 in relation to C80 or C120 when they are using it for more than coloring.

Good luck!

[Blaum Bros. Distilling Co.]

Any hints on what percentage you would need to make the flavor come through and not be overwhelmed by the other grains (corn/rye)? 5%? 30%?

I've done a malt, bourbon, and rye ... only a few months old and in barrels. Caramel malt (80L) really seems to come through quite strong ... even at 2% of the bill. I've been able to add more smoked malt without it being overpowering, but I have no idea what the oak will do with these flavors well down the road. I'd been told in the past that with most specialty malts, sprinkle them in like salt and pepper ... typically no more than 5% of the total bill depending on the malt. Trying a malt mash today with as little as 1% chocolate (which supposedly is quite bitter if too much is added).

[Blaum Bros. Distilling Co.]

In my most recent --yet limited -- experience, I've found that the specialty malts really pop through with column use. The same amount of specialty malt does not come through as much on a double, alembic distillation. I think I'll either need to add more specialty malt and stay alembic, or start stripping through a column.

[sweetT14]

_{I am really interested in this topic, and it has been very eye opening thus far...}

_{I have one question though, is it a must to use a malt chocolate as opposed to, lets say, store bought chocolate. I mean what are the faults with just melting down a chocolate bar and adding it to your mash? You can buy a 5 gallon bucket worth of chocolate icing like bakeries use and it would have fermentable sugars. I imagine you could buy it fairly cheap by the 5 gallon.}

_{Just curious...}

[Lenny]

_{I am really interested in this topic, and it has been very eye opening thus far...}

_{I have one question though, is it a must to use a malt chocolate as opposed to, lets say, store bought chocolate. I mean what are the faults with just melting down a chocolate bar and adding it to your mash? You can buy a 5 gallon bucket worth of chocolate icing like bakeries use and it would have fermentable sugars. I imagine you could buy it fairly cheap by the 5 gallon.}

_{Just curious...}

I just spit out my coffee reading this!

First off, for clarification sake, the malt in question is nothing more than a form of dark roasted malted barley. http://www.midwestsupplies.com/maillard-malts-briess-chocolate-malt.html. You might have known that, but I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

I guess you're not really asking that crazy of a question though. There's a book out there called Radical Brewing. You might want to pick up a copy. Lots of off the wall stuff in there about brewing beer to provide inspiration.

The reason not to pitch a chocolate bar or cacao nibs or other flavoring agents that *could* be used is that, 1. it would not allow the mash to continue on to become a true "malt whiskey" (if that's what one was after), and 2. there are likely better places to introduce flavors into your spirit if one was to go nuts with flavor additions. Most brewers will opt to introduce flavors (beyond specialty malt or adjuncts) either at the end of their boil or post-fermentation during conditioning in order to avoid subtle flavors volatilizing during the boil or ferment. In a spirit, there are quite a few opportunities to add flavor that might be more effective than a mash addition. Maceration, ginbasket, etc. Then again, maybe you throw a box of reces peanutbutter cups into your mash and bring to market one of the most interesting spirits of the year... (as well as one of the best posts of the year)

[sweetT14]

I realize yall were talking about malted barley, I was just curious why you didn't just use a consumer type chocolate instead, seems it would be cheaper but, 1. If its definitely a specialty malt whiskey that you are making then I can understand that, 2. I guess you answered my question. Its probably better to flavor after fermentation and distillation when not using a specialty malt since there are more efficient ways and fermenting on consumer type chocolate could produce off flavors but you cannot say from experience.

Thanks for commenting to the "the best post of the year". Just trying to learn

[Blaum Bros. Distilling Co.]

I realize yall were talking about malted barley, I was just curious why you didn't just use a consumer type chocolate instead, seems it would be cheaper but, 1. If its definitely a specialty malt whiskey that you are making then I can understand that, 2. I guess you answered my question. Its probably better to flavor after fermentation and distillation when not using a specialty malt since there are more efficient ways and fermenting on consumer type chocolate could produce off flavors but you cannot say from experience.

Thanks for commenting to the "the best post of the year". Just trying to learn

It's all good, we're on the same page ... Perhaps to answer the question I'd say that chocolate malt is going to give me a much different flavor profile than real chocolate in any spirit I make. I think the use of real chocolate is going to really overpower things with a chocolaty taste (which some people are looking for in certain product categories), whereas chocolate malt (which actually tastes more like coffee) is just referring to how deep the malt was roasted, and will add a little sweetness (or bitterness, depending on how much is used) to the spirit. Definitely won't make my whiskey taste like chocolate though (at least not in the quantities I'm using!).

[boognish]

_{I am really interested in this topic, and it has been very eye opening thus far...}

_{I have one question though, is it a must to use a malt chocolate as opposed to, lets say, store bought chocolate. I mean what are the faults with just melting down a chocolate bar and adding it to your mash? You can buy a 5 gallon bucket worth of chocolate icing like bakeries use and it would have fermentable sugars. I imagine you could buy it fairly cheap by the 5 gallon.}

_{Just curious...}

[sweetT14]

I gotcha, I was under the impression that it produced a chocolate like flavor, which I assumed was the reason you were using it, which is the reason I brought up chocolate. My mistake...

Laugh if you must, I deserve it...

[boognish]

It's all good natured ribbing! The chocolate malt is chocolatey for sure. Different beast than actual chocolate though

[Natrat]

Which brings me to another question....is there anyone that you guys know of using malt extract to make whiskey? Me, I'm from the brewing world, where "malt extract," is a swear word. But it strikes me as maybe being a useful tool for distilling.

And there are specialty extracts available, too. And Belgian candi. And...I can think of lots of things!

But I think malt extract would be TTB ok to make whiskey...am I wrong?

[boognish]

You could use it, but it's not cheap.

[Natrat]

True...seems like a 650 lb drum is about $900, and dilution at 1.64 gets you 1.060, which I figure at about 69 cases of finished product.