JonDistiller

Hi Granger,

Has this been sold, I'm interested.

I'm midway through proofing my first cordial.  The dissolved solids are high enough that I must use the distilling method.    My question is, the TTB videos for proofing cordials discuss a very small sample size.   I'm guessing it's assuming the presence of equipment  that can make use of smaller sizes.    I can't afford that yet, and am using the hydrometer method, and so I have to fit my sample into a container that my hydrometer will fit into.   My 0-100 prof hydrometer can fit into a 350 mL flask, but my fine accuracy hydrometer needs a wider container, so my sample size needs to be 1000 mL.   

When the TTB discusses adding distilled water to the sample prior to distilling, can I use the mL they discuss, or do I need to increase the amount proportionally to my sample size? 

So, a quick question for advice.   There's a lot in this business that needs to be food grade, which does involve a certain expense... but there's a lot that doesn't.   For example, I started out with a homemade water chiller.   Now that it's time to upgrade, a local winery put me onto the fact that once you tack "distillery", "brewery", or "winery" onto equipment, the cost skyrockets, and suggested looking at water chillers for hydroponics, rather than for distilleries.   Does anyone have any tips they would share regarding equipment, where looking outside our industry we can save a bundle?   (FYI, I'm already aware of the cost savings available to grain separation from mash)    

If you shine a phone flashlight through it, do you see lots of small glitter points or does it continue to look like the above picture?

The only time I ever got that color, was when I'd had a puke on the smaller still I trained on.     Even if you're not puking now, I wonder if you have some residual material that eluded your cleaning protocol?

jon

I recycle water, to cool my 60 gallon still.    Costs were tight at startup, so rather than purchasing a normal chiller, my partner and I made one ourselves.     We daisy chained several IBC totes together to create a thermal cooling mass (900 gallons).   We then used standard finned copper baseboard pipes.   Usually used to radiate heat into a room.   You can buy them at lowes or home depot.   Placed these on the wall, as part of the water return line.   Back and forth several times.   Less than 30 ft total length.  then rigged standard house box fans to blow over the fins.   Does help with heat in winter tbh.  

It works ok with my 60 gallon pot still, especially with low wines runs.   A 60 gallon spirit run is pushing it a bit though.   It's warmer than I like towards the end of tails.    When I upgrade to a 250, I'd definitely need either more thermal mass, or an increased water/air flow.  Probably getting to be time to shell out cash for the professional equipment actually designed for this though.

You definitely can find ways to do this though.

jon 

I'm also interested in your location and in the total height of the still.   I'm looking for a used stripping still.   

Hey there!  

I missed this topic when you posted it.   I recently started putting a sheet for production together a couple of days ago.    I'll refine it over time to automate more outputs.   FYI I'm a very small distillery, and I'm tailoring it to myself so I don't know if it will be useful for you.      This is a first draft with just a couple hours of work by an amateur excel user, so don't expect too much.  Eventually I'll create forms to really have a viable user interface, but for now it's just a basic spreadsheet with a few simple formulas.     

Still I'm happy with it thus far.   Mostly I just want my number tracking to automatically give me info for my monthly reporting so I don't have to manually tabulate things.   At present, it only totals what I've produced, the production by kind, and the ingredients.  Those are based on my processes... bourbon is a finished spirit at the 2nd run for me.   Gin however, doesn't show as finished till the 3rd run....  that type of thing. 

FYI:  it's not done, so if you use anything from it, it's at your own risk. Still, this type of thing is good for ideas, and might help you see how to put your own personal version together.    Examples of how to get excel to sum the proof gallon values, based on a couple of different text criteria (I.e. "Bourbon" + "2nd Run") can come in handy for putting your own together.   

Color coding =

• light green cells should have automated entry
• light blue cells need manual entry
• darker blue cells are drop down boxes

Edit:  BTW... quick agreement with above poster re: alcodens.   That software is the one that I would recommend highly!   It's been super helpful to me and I use it all the time, not just at proofing time, but for calculating correct weights when I fill bottles, for establishing my proof gallons by weight for my own records, etc.   

Distillery Reporting.xlsx

Raising an old post, but I'd like to find out more about hoochware.  Are you guys liking it?

I just was communicating with distill x5, and was kinda shocked at the price for what you get.   I had sorta assumed their subscription prices would be similar to the major software in other industries like the subscription to protools or photoshop or illustrator.   Those are way more complicated than what needs to be tracked for TTB or the state.   I'm debating just writing something myself, but if hoochware is in a more reasonable range I wouldn't mind saving myself the time.    Do you guys recommend it?   

On 1/28/2021 at 2:11 PM, Still_Holler said:

Located in WV, zip 26270. Possible delivery for fee within couple state area.

I'm interested.   I'm in upstate NY.    You mentioned the propane burner and venting, I would also want those.    Are they included in the 5k or is that an additional cost?

Working through those right now.     First time on these, and I too was trying to figure out exactly the definition of "amount produced or manufactured" and "amount produced after blending/rectifying/fortifying/or reducing alcohol contents.

Do they use the only completed saleable product for "produced"?  Wouldn't proofing to bottle strength be "reducing alcohol contents"?   or maybe that's really intended to refer to production of liquors?

Appreciate the advice @Silk City Distillersand @PeteB.  I'll go for that on my next batch, once the missing enzyme gets delivered.    BTW Silk, I just wanted to say thanks for some advice you gave another distiller a while ago about the proofing process, which was very helpful to me.    

On 11/3/2020 at 7:44 PM, Silk City Distillers said:

Consider mashing in all your raw grain with your base grain - corn or rye.

Do you find better conversion doing that?   100% unmalted is still quite new to me, and I chose the slightly lower temp to introduce the raw grain, simply based off some research papers that were published testing the rates of conversion at a higher temp vs the lower temp as well as at different ratios of water to grain, that found the lower temp had better conversion, so I thought I'd try that.   I might be theory crafting too much for these trial batches?     

2 hours ago, adamOVD said:

Trouble shooting a ferment is like trouble shooting and engine or anything else. Start gathering data eliminating possibilities step by step. Is the problem with the conversion or the ferment? Do an iodine conversion test so you have a better idea. Is your grain gelling? Do a longer or hotter cook to see what happens, or do a mini sample without enzyme to see if it thickens up. Is your ferment healthy? What's the gravity, ph and temp of your ferment each day? Does it start slow? What does it taste like? Will it start again if you repitch? When I was brewing I'd even do yeast cell counts and viability tests to get ahead of any problems before they happened.

Mashing schedules are really up to you and your equipment/ mash bill. You'll probably get more helpful tips if you can isolate the actual problem. Good news is there are really only a handful of things that can go wrong.

Thanks much for your help.  Very true, but atm it seems I've overlooked one of the necessary enzymes... (facepalm)   Apparently I'm still at the check if it's plugged or unplugged state of troubleshooting.  Fingers crossed it powers up and I don't have to really delve.   

4 hours ago, JailBreak said:

From the sounds of it you are creating a lot of unfermentables by only using alpha amylase and bioglucanase. This will leave you with some fermentables, but a lot of longer-chained carbohydrates that the yeast can't utilize. Adam mentioned it as well, but a glucoamylase added in the 140F range will chop up those longer chains and probably fix your problem.

Cheers!

I think that's my problem.   I'm off to purchase.   Thanks much.   I've always used malt before, so this test recipe needing all the enzymes is new ground for me.   Appreciate the assist.   

17 hours ago, adamOVD said:

Usually a Beta-Glucanase is recommended for a high rye or wheat mashes. It should make your mash less gluey as well if your agitator was the motor that you mention was strained, not your mill. It needs to be added around 140F though. Glucoamylase is supposed to break down more types of starch chains than Beta or Alpha. I also use a little yeast nutrient when using non-malted grains.

Thanks for responding.   I mis-named an enzyme.   Rather than beta, it was bioglucanase.  

18 hours ago, PeteB said:

Just to be clear, does your mash consist of un-malted corn + un-malted wheat + Alpha + Beta? No malted grain?

I am not an enzyme expert but I have been experimenting with them for years. Maybe reasonably pure alpha and beta are not the best at breaking down wheat starch to fermentable sugars. Malted wheat has its own specific enzymes.

Also high start gravity does not necessarily mean high fermentable sugars, the high final gravity could mean non-fermentables caused by incorrect enzymes.

I will follow to see what others have to say.

 

Hey, I just fixed my post.   I named the wrong enzyme.   Rather than "beta" it was bioglucanase.  

18 hours ago, PeteB said:

Just to be clear, does your mash consist of un-malted corn + un-malted wheat + Alpha + Beta? No malted grain?

I am not an enzyme expert but I have been experimenting with them for years. Maybe reasonably pure alpha and beta are not the best at breaking down wheat starch to fermentable sugars. Malted wheat has its own specific enzymes.

Also high start gravity does not necessarily mean high fermentable sugars, the high final gravity could mean non-fermentables caused by incorrect enzymes.

I will follow to see what others have to say.

 

Yes, unmalted corn + unmalted wheat + alpha + bioglucanase.   No malted grain.

On 10/28/2020 at 4:36 PM, PeteB said:

Most of the Australian and Scottish distillers I know end up with 3 products at the end of the spirit run. 

Most common terms I hear are Fores, heart, feints.  

It appears as if many US distillers end up with 4 products.

Is this the order  Fores - Heads - Hearts - Feints?   

Also often hear  ........ - Middle cut - Tails,

but in general is it Fores or Heads that come off first?

Exactly as you had it, and as Adam said.    Fores first, then heads, then hearts, then tails are the 4 stages I was taught.   These are largely divisions by flavor changes over time, except for fores.  Heads being a mix of undesirable and desirable flavors, giving way to a stabilized flavor in hearts, followed by a new mix of desirable and undesirable flavors in the tails.   Everything from these 3 areas that doesn't make the blend has loads of recoverable ethanol, so it gets recycled, and that product is called feints.      One of the reasons for separating out the fores, is to avoid a buildup of higher alcohols over time in the recycled product, by providing an avenue to remove the highest concentration of undesirables that has minimal recoverable ethanol.

When thinking in terms of 3 stages to the run, is it just that fores/heads become one thing, or are there any other differences?

Never rains but it pours.    I've just started having this problem too.

Recently I wanted to trial using raw wheat rather than malted in my bourbon.   Thus far I've been happy with malted for my product, however I wanted to learn what the impact to the flavor profile is using raw grains.   

I'm cooking the corn for an hour with high temp alpha amylase.  

Adding the roller milled raw wheat at 185 for another hour.  (man the motor doesn't like that stuff.)  

 - (note:  When I was reading up on the process for raw wheat, I've read different info on the best temp for this step... both higher and lower have been suggested, though lower was generally from an amateur source, that when I traced the source, had some other info that was incorrect, so i view that dubiously.   Any opinions?)

Bringing the temp to 153 for powdered alpha amylase since the corn temps were high enough to denature high temp alpha with a 1/2 hour hold, then I take it down to 146 and add bioglucanase for another hour.  

SG reads 1.068 which is in the range I'd expect, so it seemed to convert ok.  I use a transfer method with lots of splash, so I don't believe oxygenation is the issue, I'm maintaining consistent temps in the fermentation room, yet as I'm trialing using raw wheat, I've suddenly begun to have stuck ferments at 1.04.   I did work to break the stick with another pitch and with agitation with partial success  (1 fermentor weakly kicked off again, another didnt), but ultimately chose to toss the batches as I didn't feel I could learn meaningful flavor profile information in a situation where the yeast had gotten badly stressed.         

Is there anything specific I'm doing wrong that might lead to stuck ferments?  Is raw grain more prone to this?   It does occur to me that I was using the same yeast pitch as I used for malted.   Does raw require more?   I also checked for any changes in water treatments with the water department on the chance that might be the problem.   Validated chorine rather than chloramine.  They did note they had slightly upped chlorine recently so the 2nd batch gave the water a boil and an overnights rest before use, but nothing changed.  PH was in the same ranges over time that has consistently worked with malted.  Starting water is generally at 7.4 with low iron but moderate calcium.     

On 6/24/2020 at 12:22 PM, SCLabGuy said:

 

- Wait: For the next 60-90 mins the product will still be integrating (ethanol and water molecules getting together in their final interlocked configuration, spitting off heat in the process)

 

Does it really need 60-90 minutes to get an accurate read for the next measurement?   I haven't been giving mine quite that long, and I want to be sure that I'm following best practices.  My batches are more in the 30 g range 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:31 AM, kleclerc77 said:

We use coarsely ground corn and rye here and get great conversion with 45 minute temp rests. For the most part, our ratios match up. Though it is tough to say when we're not using the same brand of enzymes. My one thought is that you may want to contact your enzyme supplier about how to maximize their efficiency. We use a high temp alpha at 2ml per gallon / final mash volume, added after the first 25% of grain is added. It works like a charm in the 170-190F range. We then pitch our gluco amylase as we start to fill the fermenter, right before we pitch our yeast. Another question, which has resulted in lower yields for some folks: how low are you collecting your into stripping run? 

Personally, I go down to 30 proof on the strip.   

On 9/26/2020 at 7:34 PM, PeteB said:

Depends quite a bit on how long you are going to age it. If you want a quick turnaround I suggest taking a big fores cut, if your conditions allow and you can age for say 10 years then you can get away with a much smaller cut, the angels will assist with removing some of the fores. 

As long as you re-cycle the fores and don't throw out every time, a big cut is not a waste of your hard won spirit.

This!   the cut points will differ based on how long you age it.   I'd also note that they differ with different equipment.   You will have a bigger cut on a pot still for example than on a column still.

Are we all using the terms the same way though?   The way I use these terms, fores are the part that is not recycled.  (as opposed to the "heads" that didn't make the blending cut)

Rather than a fixed percentage, some will use the vapor temperature to help determine cuts, as you can infer some information about the contents of the vapors from the temps for fores.       Thinking volumetrically, you may lose some of the potentially recyclable ethanol that way, but it's also easy and can give nice margins at the cost of efficiency.   I believe the thinking on that was 1 tablespoon per gallon of original mash with a Pot Still.   Less for a column still as they are better at concentrating heads.     

20 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

When it's time for you to order your stripping still give me a holler: paul@distillery-equipment.com

I'll definitely talk to you!