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Alex_Sor

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Everything posted by Alex_Sor

  1. Do you have a lot of extra time? for the third and fourth slow distillation? Can it be easier to do just one run under vacuum? I do not understand such advice - "do everything slowly and for a long time".
  2. you need to apply vacuum distillation. this will not waste so much time on distillation, and allows you to more accurately trim the impurities. At the heart of the problem, you need something akin to gas or liquid chromatography. This can be done in several ways, but the simplest is vacuum distillation. This way, you can select part of the head, part of the body and part of the tails on the same setup in one pass.
  3. There is a common problem: distillation columns require great heights because they use gravitational temperature separation in height. Do you want to use 10 plates? This will not give you alcohol above 89-92% ... To get high purity alcohol (94-95.5%) you need at least 24, preferably 45-48 plates. You need to think about using vacuum distillation, it gives the best purity at low temperatures. As for low ceilings, there is a horizontal stripping column solution. It can have a height of only 1-2 meters but about 10-20 steps (plates).
  4. you need to read about "palenque" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pálinka
  5. in Physics this is called "phase transition". a simple example: until all the water in your kettle boils away (as long as there is liquid water in the kettle), the temperature of the kettle will never exceed 100 Celsius. (at atmospheric pressure). Only when all the liquid turns into vapor will the temperature rise again. In the case of a mixture of alcohol and water, the boiling point depends on the concentration of alcohol and water. When the alcohol vaporizes, the rest of the liquid boils at a higher temperature. If you do not want to steam up the "tails" then you need to use vacuum distillation instead of classical.
  6. Archi or arak is the most famous and traditional strong alcoholic drink made from milk, which was widespread in Siberia and Central Asia. Depending on the country and region, it varied in strength, raw materials and manufacturing procedure. Since archi is not a fermented drink like kumis, but a distillation product, great technical knowledge and special equipment are needed for its production. Traditionally, the Mongols made it in special distillation apparatus. It is believed that it was Genghis Khan and his warriors who brought this skill with them to the conquered lands, although the art of distillation itself originated in the Arab world, presumably in Iraq. Soyots, unlike the Mongols, made milk vodka not from fermented mare's milk, but from fermented cow's milk whey. After separating the milk into cream and whey, milk yeast was added to the latter, the whey was fermented and a light alcoholic sour drink called "hurunge" was obtained, which compensated for the lack of vitamins and microelements necessary for the body. And milk vodka was prepared like this: about one and a half buckets of khurunge were poured into the cauldron. At a distance of 2 arshins from the boiler, a wooden tub ("khyiber") was placed, half filled with cold water. A cast-iron jug ("tanha") with a tightly attached wooden lid was lowered into it. Two holes were made in the lid: one an inch in diameter, central, and the other side - very small, through which a measuring stick was passed into the jug to determine the amount of the finished drink. The cauldron was also closed with a lid, in which there was a hole with a diameter of one vershok. The cauldron and the jug, which served as a refrigerator, were connected by a curved, elbowed wooden tube ("surgo"). The ends of the tube were placed over the holes in the lids of the cauldron and jug. Then all the cracks in the lids and the joints of the tube with the boiler and the jug were coated with clay. If there was no clay, it was coated with cow dung. A fire was made under the cauldron, and the khurunge began to boil. The steam passed through the tube into the jug, cooled and turned into a liquid "tarasun". After 45 minutes from the start of the boil, 1 liter of a fairly strong drink was obtained. The longer they boiled, the weaker the tarasun turned out. If the khurunge was good, that is, the milk was fat, then the tarasun was obtained with a strength of up to 20 degrees, from a bad khurunge they received tarasun at 10-12 degrees. If the tarasun was distilled several times, then an even stronger tarasun was obtained, which is called "archi". The alcohol content in it was such that when ignited, the arch burned. It was prepared as a reserve in case of feasts, and the tarasun was drunk immediately hot.
  7. Good questions. I numbered them for accuracy. (1) Thermodynamics has never been an exact science The advent of computers made it possible to solve many problems at the same time, and choose from them those that are most suitable for the real situation. For example, the "Free Area Ratio of the Dry Packing" is 0.44 and the "Free Area Ratio of the Wet Packing" is 0.3. What I have given above (picture) is calculated with an approximate safety factor of 1.1. In calculations from old textbooks, it was recommended to use from 1.1 to 1.3. If we are talking about the full calculation of the column, then everything is more complicated. The diameter of the column is calculated based on the required productivity for alcohol at the outlet, this gives us the steam velocity inside the column, then we calculate the volumetric flow rate of alcohol steam and water vapor inside the column, while taking into account the flow area of the holes (caps or sink holes). Complex formula Then we choose the diameter of the column closest to the calculated size, while the Vapor Velocity is considered normal if it is within 0.5-1.2 meters / second. We calculate the minimum steam velocity in the holes of the plate. The shape of the caps or holes is also important, you can create a column that will work well at 2-5 meters per second steam velocity. We calculate the hydraulic resistance of the tray at the top of the column. This will affect choking (coughing). And only then we do the "Thermal calculation of the installation". We calculate the consumption of heat given off to the cooling water in the reflux condenser. We do this for different reflux numbers, and choose something in between. After that we can calculate the "Dephlegmator surface". Heat losses and efficiency of the reflux condenser (or cooler) are calculated separately, taking into account the thickness of the walls of the tubes, the number of tubes, turbulence inside the reflux condenser, etc. There are a lot of formulas There are a lot of tables of correspondence of theoretical calculations and tests in real devices. But ... it can all be boiled down to a "safety factor". The mathematical model allows you to "play with numbers" in 10 minutes and get the answer you need, with the required safety margin (performance). This is Engineering Creativity I like creating things. Especially those that no one created, or believes that it is impossible to create them. (2) The capacitor in the picture is, yes, 100%, but its calculations usually take a safety factor of 1.1. I can very accurately count the capacitor separately. (3) "Practical heat transfer" is a very vague concept. I can apply a $100 solution to a dephlegmator that will increase its efficiency by a factor of 1.6 to 2.2. But I can do everything "according to the textbook" and get an efficiency of 60% instead of 90% ... Thermodynamics and "vortex processes" cannot be calculated accurately. Only mathematical modeling of flows makes it possible to roughly understand which of the solutions will be better for a particular job. as an example of what I am saying, I will give a new picture I played with numbers and got a more effective picture. I have translated the inscriptions into English. "cm3 per hour" is the cubic centimeter of the volume of alcohol per hour.
  8. I have a mathematical model that takes into account (and calculates) all flows of water and alcohol vapor in a condenser and reflux condenser. Here is a picture of the model working. It shows what temperatures are at the inlets and outlets of the alcohol refrigerator, vapor condenser, and reflux condenser. Selection of 25 liters of pure alcohol per hour (in the picture), with a heater power of 16 kilowatts. The model allows you to "play with numbers" and see what happens at different speeds of water and different powers. It is a "closed model" that uses a conventional (car-type) radiator(green color) to exchange heat between ambient air and cooling water. Therefore, the temperature of the coldest water here = 35 Celsius. Main circuit water flow = 15 liters per minute, reflux condenser water flow = 7 liters per minute. Temperature at the inlet to the reflux condenser = 38.8 Celsius, at the outlet = 65.3 Celsius. Please note that a water flow of 15 liters per minute heats up in the alcohol condenser from only 35.6 to 38.8 Celsius! At the same time, the condensation power is 3 kilowatts, which gives the condensation of alcohol 12 liters per hour in this place. The model shows that only 3.144 degrees Celsius from the cooling water is used for this. This is one of the mathematical models for simulating the operation of a distiller that I have.
  9. Please indicate in this thread what I wrote incorrectly. In this thread. What, in your opinion, contradicts Physics. I write my opinion and explain it. If you personally do not understand, then this is not my problem. The laws of physics do not depend on your mood and your opinion. I'm not going to argue with those who do not want to delve deeply into the processes. This will be an argument between a blind man and a deaf one
  10. What does barrels have to do with the work of a dephlegmator? You do not understand either theory or practice, but are you trying to judge me?
  11. I'm talking about what I know (taught and understood the issue) and what I myself have tested in practice. I have my own designs for distillation equipment, which I first calculated and developed, and then tested in real work. Without the Theory of "how it works" there is no point in doing practice. The balance of energies is what matters. If you calculate the balance of energy input and cold water output, you will always get very good results.
  12. no need to pretend to be stupid I believe, and I am sure, that before doing something, you need to study the Theory of "how it works". It's not as difficult as it sounds. And this (study) does not require an advanced degree from you the usual curiosity of the boy Smaller temperature differences in the dephlegmator allow for smoother control. Yes it is. But why ? And the answer is simple: cold water can take more energy from the condensation process. And a small amount (mass) of very cold water leads to great results. That is: if you slightly change the mass of flowing cold water, and the mass of warm water, you will get different results. Because you will remove more heat from the process if the water is very cold. Am I making it clear? We have a variable value: this is the "degree of coldness of water" and, there is a constant, a constant (relatively) and stable value = this is the condensation temperature of steam in the reflux condenser. This is a "phase transition" and it stabilizes its temperature. the smaller the temperature difference, the more options for the rate of water supply to the dephlegmator, and the easier the regulation.
  13. I will repeat once again: you consider the distillation process as a set of disparate facts, but it is a complex but interrelated process, and in the process of distillation there are two "natural stabilizers" - two phase transitions. It is not necessary to search for temperatures, but to control the supply and removal of heat. If you supply too much cold energy (remove heat from the process), then you knock down the smooth flow of the process. And you get clogging.
  14. I wrote what I wrote and what I wanted to write. Regardless of your thoughts, there is Physics and Chemistry. Physics interests us in its section "gas-liquid phase transition". So, if you have a distillation process, and your equipment is correctly calculated, then you do not need any electronic "control devices". The whole process takes place independently and accurately and harmoniously. Phase transition gas-liquid (in the condenser) and liquid-gas (in the distillation tank) are Physical Process Stabilizers. No electronics needed at all. From the control, only "cooling water flow" and "heating power" (stable) are needed. The use of warmer water in the reflux condenser reduces the "thermal head" (I do not know how this concept is translated into English), which allows a smaller temperature gradient in the reflux condenser tubes, and this leads to better stability of operation.
  15. Everything is correct. The role of the condenser-alcohol cooler and the reflux condenser is different. It is important for the condenser to turn all the alcohol vapor into liquid and cool the alcohol. For a reflux condenser, it is important not to condense all the alcohol, but to do just partial condensation. If you supply very cold water to the dephlegmator, you run the risk of disrupting the normal flow of the process. Why? because there will be a very large temperature difference between cold water and alcohol vapor. If you supply water to the dephlegmator after the alcohol condenser-cooler, this water will be heated to 30-40 degrees Celsius, this will not cause a "condensation shock" in the dephlegmator. You will get a stable dephlegmator performance.
  16. In Ukraine (I live here) there is an ancient city - Lutsk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutsk They prepare alcoholic beverages with honey, it's very tasty In general, you need to decide what you want to do. The fact is that there are many ancient recipes for "mead". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead But if you want to use honey for fermentation and then isolate alcohol, then you only need to use vacuum distillation, so as not to increase the heating temperature above 40 Celsius, otherwise all the smells of honey will be lost. I can help with vacuum distillation, I develop processes and equipment. I have several recipes for honey drinks.
  17. You shouldn't worry about it. AISI 304 steel has excellent mechanical properties, and if it is welded correctly between its parts, then intergranular chipping (metal fatigue) is not a problem for you. Your temperatures are too low for problems Example: Calculate the linear elongation of a 0.5 meter long stainless steel beam when its temperature rises from 27 Celsius to 1027 Celsius. According to the table, the average coefficient of linear expansion of steel in the temperature range of 27...1027C is equal to 22.3 · 10-6 deg-1. That is: an increase in size of 0.0000223 meters by 1 degree Celsius. Let's calculate: 22.3 * 10-6 * (1027-27) * 0.5 = 0.0111 meter. We get the value of the linear elongation of the beam 0.0111 meters. For the case of a moonshine still, the temperature difference will not be higher than 100 degrees Celsius, then: 22.3 * 10-6 * (100) * 0.5 = 0.001115 meters, this is 1.115 millimeters. This is a very small value
  18. You forget that carbon dioxide is a heavy gas, and it goes down instead of flying up. So the sensors should be placed not at the top but at the bottom of the room, where people walk. If you have a leaky room, then carbon dioxide "spills" out through the cracks in the doors. But ventilation of the room is required. Carbon dioxide does not burn and does not support combustion, but a person does not need to breathe it.
  19. The distillation process cannot be reduced to "one formula" I am engaged in the design and calculations of distillation equipment and continuous columns. I have the development of a vacuum distiller. So, in order to be able to quickly calculate (in 10-15 minutes) the entire distillation installation, I had to create a huge spreadsheet, inside which I can simulate different processes and get answers: what are the bottlenecks? What will the alcohol performance be? how much steam and cooling water is required? This is not mechanics it is thermodynamics, the theory of strength, the theory of steam outflow in different holes and a lot of other knowledge. Unfortunately, not everything can be calculated accurately. Therefore, the calculation that I receive, I then consider it from the point of view of my experience and intuition and add the necessary "reserves" to those parts of the structure that I do not really like (narrow throat). The easiest way is to make a quick calculation using the input parameters of alcohol productivity per day, or to recalculate what happens if the tank is increased by XXXX gallons? Will the rest of the equipment have enough performance? If you have any questions, please contact me.
  20. Hi, I think that you just need to recalculate the volume of your CH for the new volume of the tank. The bottom line is this: Your existing CH is designed to handle some volume of alcohol vapor from your 500 liter (gallon) tank. At the same time, this volume of filling CH can only process the volume of alcohol that comes out of the tank of 500 liters(gallon). Now you have a tank of 2500. This means that you need to put proportionally more material in the CH (proportional to the amount of alcohol vapors, alcohol) than for a 500 tank. But there is one big problem here: the rate of release of substances from the material that you put in the CH will be different. You can ignore this, and just make the CH proportionally larger in volume, anyway, then you will be engaged in changing the concentration of alcohol (adding water, proofing alcohol). The second important thing: your new CH should not create a lot of resistance to alcohol vapors, so you need to maintain (proportionally) the cross section of the vapor passage compared to the old one.
  21. To fully utilize one 379,000 BTU hot water boilers, you will need a cooling system that pumps 1,030.3 gallons per hour of water through it, with an inlet temperature of 20 Celsius. This is a large volume of water ... In this case, the area of the alcohol condenser (the area of heat exchange in the condenser) should be 0.8--1 square meters. The water temperature at the outlet of the cooling system will be about 44 degrees, and you can get up to 17.4 gallons of alcohol per hour at the outlet, with a temperature of 43 Celsius. These are big numbers...
  22. Underwater winery in Croatia Croatian grape growing and winemaking traditions date back to ancient Greek settlers who used amphorae to store their wine. This tradition is about 2500 years old. The owners of the Edivo Vina winery (Ivo Šegović, Anto Šegovic, Edi Bajurin) came up with an ingenious idea that could be one of the reasons to visit Croatia. Winemakers in love with their craft have mixed history, sea, underwater world, fine wine and pure pleasure in one bottle. This is how the first underwater winery in Croatia was founded. You've probably already heard about the city of Dubrovnik, very close to it, literally around the corner, there is a small town of Drace, on the Pelješac peninsula. This is where the underwater winemaking villa is located, which is now open to visitors. This means you too can dive with the winery staff and learn how to store their premium Plavac Edivo wine. The process of creating such a wine takes several years. The winery owners describe it like this: “We bottle fine Dalmatian wine and place it in terracotta amphorae. These vessels are sent to the bottom of the sea to a depth of 18-25 meters. All of them are perfectly stored, corked and aged in bottles under water for one to two years. As a result, an ideal thermal state is obtained, a beautiful layer of shells and algae appears on the amphora. The wine does not lose a drop of its aroma, quality or color. Free cooling in ideal conditions and the wonderful underwater silence only enhance the quality of the wine. Try it and see for yourself. Bring home a unique souvenir from the depths of the Adriatic Sea. " But if you are not inspired by the idea of diving into the water in search of unique experiences and wine, you can buy them at the wine shop from the owners of this amazing winery. It will be an incredible vacation gift. Who doesn't want to take a piece of history with them in an amphora that has stood under water for two years and is covered with sea plants, shells, corals and algae. If you are traveling in Dalmatia, try the local cuisine with a glass of Plavac Edivo wine.
  23. In another topic on this forum, I spoke about "storage in barrels". I believe that in the 21st century it is necessary to apply newer technologies than the old ones. Shooting alcohol through the walls of the barrels for evaporation is a waste of money and resources.
  24. Hugo, if you want a more accurate answer from me, then you need to provide me with more information. Thermal Engineering and Thermodynamics is a complex science with many non-linear relationships. You can't just take one thing and multiply it by two It doesn't matter how many plates you have in the column. The important thing is that you have a dephlegmator. This means that you will have an adjustable reflux ratio in your moonshine still. I do not know the area of the heat transfer surfaces in your dephlegmator and your condenser-cooler. In my calculations, I have taken a reflux ratio of 1.8. If you have a different reflux ratio, the calculations will change. So, for example, if the reflux ratio is = 1.1 this will give an alcohol release rate of 16.1 liters per hour. F, (square centimeters) = 1197.0 (increase). With the same water flow rate (600 liters per hour from 20 degrees inlet), the condenser outlet temperature will be 47.9 degrees Celsius. The dephlegmator will enter +47.9 degrees water, and it should not boil. Calculations (rough calculation) tell us that with reflux ratio = 1.8 and alcohol yield = 12.1 liters per hour, the surface area of the reflux condenser F, (square centimeters) should be = 1642.9. This is more than the heat transfer area of the condenser. In this case, at the exit from the reflux condenser, we get = 76.5 degrees Celsius. This is very hot water! And it will be 600 liters per hour! I would recommend doing air cooling. For example, how people who have little money do it: What is stand-alone cooling and how is it used? The autonomous cooling system works according to the following principle: water (that is, coolant) is pumped from the tank to the refrigerator (2) so that alcohol vapors condense. In this case, the liquid heats up and flows to the lower inlet of the radiator (3). The fan (3) and radiator from the car, cools the water to the ambient temperature. After that, the water returns through the upper pipe to the container (4). (5 = pump)
  25. It looks like you have a calculation error and did not provide complete data for your installation. For example, it is not clear to me how fast you are going to get alcohol? I'll calculate (roughly) myself from your data. And it turns out that you have an error of about two times. The results of my calculation program: The volume of a tank with beer (mash) = 600 liters. Let's assume that the strength of the mash = 9%. The reflux ratio is taken equal to = 1.8 The results of calculating the moonshine still: alcohol withdrawal rate = 12.064 liters per hour. power input to the tank 600 liters = 20kW (68240 BTU). Refrigerant (water) temperature at the refrigerator inlet t1, Celsius = 20.0 Water flow through the cooling system Q, liters per minute = 25.0, this corresponds to = 1500 liters per hour. Average temperature difference between alcohol vapor and refrigerant dtav, Celsius = 70.82 The minimum required cooling area (calculated) F, square centimeters = 795.0 (this is the surface area of all tubes of the shell-and-tube cooler). Leaving water temperature in the cooling system t1 ', Celsius = 31.2 Conclusion from the calculation: at an input of 20 Celsius and an alcohol capacity of 12 liters of alcohol per hour, running water flowing 1500 liters per hour, heats up by only 31.2-20 = 11.2 degrees Celsius. Okay, let's assume that the cooling water flows 10 liters per minute or 600 liters per hour, at an inlet temperature of 20 degrees. Then we get: The minimum required cooling area (calculated) F, square centimeters = 898.0 (this is the surface area of all tubes of the shell-and-tube cooler). Leaving water temperature in the cooling system t1 ', Celsius = 47.9 Conclusion from the second calculation: at an input of 20 Celsius and an alcohol capacity of 12 liters of alcohol per hour, running water flowing 600 liters per hour will heat up by only 47.9-20 = 27.9 degrees Celsius. This is a calculation for an alcohol (alcohol) condenser when a moonshine still operates with a tank of 600 liters and a power of 20 kW of supplied energy, the alcohol output is 12 liters per hour. Hugo, do you have a complete calculation of your setup? I mean a full calculation of the installation work per day? My opinion: for a 20kW heating power, I would not build such a large and expensive cooling unit like yours. This is a lot of money. ...One truck cooling radiator + fan + water pump with speed control is enough.
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