Kindred Spirits

I think you would benefit from a full assessment of how things are being done, starting at the grains and mashing through the distillation process.

By being thorough on the processes documenting as much as possible you will be able to identify areas of improvement, or where you are doing great in the processes.

The way your still designer suggested running the still doesn't match conventional wisdom. I would love to chat with him on why he recommends running equipment that way.

19 hours ago, Christopher ONeal said:

That is the hearts cut. The abv at the parrot when we make cuts is generally around 105 proof.

Yes, flow to the dephleg as high as it will go. Thermometer is in the vapor path.

This is a possibility. The runs look like this: dephleg closed while collecting heads. Once we switch to main collection, dephleg is turned on very slightly, keeping vapor temp at around 190 for most of the hearts run. As vapor temp increases, dephleg is opened more until eventually the spirit flow goes down to a trickle. Then the steam gets opened up further until it is maxed out. Both dephleg and steam increase are done incrementally. Once the steam is full open and dephleg is wide open, we run until the proof at the parrot is about 105, but the final cut is made to taste.

So just based on these responses, it doesn't sound to me like the still is getting run to the best of its ability. The main purpose of having a condenser at the top of the column is create more reflux and help you make tighter cuts.

The way you are currently running your equipment does not allow it to function as designed. You should have the condenser fully open to start, reach equilibrium, make your heads cut very slowly pulling off the concentrated heads, and then run out your hearts, once again slowly pulling them off to reduce smearing.  After that its up to you if you want to reach equilibrium again to try to extract some more of the higher or lighter tails, or just run out your tails for reuse, or just end the run.

If the purchaser needs help with dismantling and setting up in their space, I would be able to help out with that.

51 minutes ago, Christopher ONeal said:

@Kindred Spirits Thanks for that insight! We had suspected that, as we have long theorized that better separation would be of extra importance for a single pass run, but our team here has more theoretical than actual experience.

Our boiler is older. Would variations in boiler pressure be enough to explain the inconsistency?

 

It wouldn't be the variations in the steam pressure, but rather the flowrate of the steam coming into the jacket of the boiler.

If you guys want some hands on, on-site training, let me know. I would love to come help out and teach you the best way to run your equipment.

So this seems to be the change that has resulted in your increase. You said:

"We have lowered the steam pressure for the majority of our run from approximately 50% full steam power to closer to 30%"

Running at a lower steam input reduces the vapor flowrate leaving the pot, which in turn allows the reflux to be more effective in the helmet and column. The result is a longer run, but better separation and better yield. 

Typically It is much easier to only move things to the processing side of things when you are wanting to bottle it. 

There isn't the same provisions as there are in the storage report for distinguishing the differences between what's there in the bulk or bottled section.

Pretty much the way I was taught to do them is, anything you make goes in "production", stuff that's just hanging out in the distillery in bulk form goes into storage, and bottled and tax withdrawn shows up on processing.

Its clear that 3 different people generated these forms at 3 different times, they really need to update them. All of the pertinent information could easily be compiled on 1 report sheet.

Technically you can just submit your own serial numbers for the equipment. As long as you mark them accordingly when they come in, there should not be any issues.

This allows you to have your equipment on the way especially if your manufacturer has a long lead time.

Hey thanks! 2023 was a great year, looking to make 2024 even better!

As 5X mentioned, you would need a location, outside of your house, to manufacture these products. 

You would also have to put some specifics on the label that reflect the process, such as "produced by XX" vs "Distilled by XX"

It would be much easier to make a small production space and be a legal distillery than do this with a bar.

If you have any questions, or would like to talk reach out to us on our website.

https://kindredspiritscsg.com/

17 minutes ago, Lawrenceburg Bourbon said:

Hi - how many gallons?  Is there a tap or spigot for a hose?  Thanks

Its 550 gallons, typically there is a 2" ball valve at the bottom of these tanks. I get most of my clients set up with these as fermenters/finish tanks.

Are you planning on implementing direct steam injection? The reason why I am asking is that most steam distillation systems makes use of jacketed kettles, thus the steam never comes into contact with the mash/wash.

If going with direct steam injection, and not using chemicals there is nothing protecting your boiler from rusting and having that pumped into your wash with the steam. 

For direct steam injection, and not treating with chemicals you will need to do a number of precautionary things to ensure your product comes out tasting well. I typically advise against direct steam injection unless you "need" to run it like for a continuous column or other specialized piece of equipment.

For other specialized systems it might be easier to use a jacketed system to generate clean steam to inject into your other still like for grappa or other direct steam required distillation.

If possible I always recommend back-flushing the outlet pipe when finishing up a mash. 

If you have a pump you can reverse the direction on its very simple to do just by grabbing a vessel to fill with some water and flush with.

If you don't have a reversible motor you can use ball valves on the ends of your hoses to keep the mess to a minimum while flipping the pump around.

10 hours ago, Cody-BGD said:

I reached out a day after seeing this and got a response the same day. Had to do a few minor corrections and got my approval on Nov 16th. Overall very happy with the process. A lot smoother than I thought it would be. Now I just have to deal with State approval and I can already tell that is going to be a lot bigger headache.

That's great to hear, they have been usually very responsive when either my clients or I have reached out in the past. If you need any help with state approval let me know.

12 hours ago, Widirtfishing said:

Thanks for that insight. I plan to be completely upfront and have a conversation with the municipal water plant whatever way we go. 
Discharging into septic really isn’t an option either so either way I’ll need a grain plan. Plenty of farmers around here though and have a contact that works on a pig farm, haven’t reached out yet, as I’m not that far along in my planning stages but I will definitely factor that in.  

That's the best way to go about it, be up front and open about what you plan on doing. The worst thing is to try to get away with something and get caught.

Pig farms are the way to go, they love free slop for their animals. 

The TTB cited the discussion on this forum?

According to the TTB's own TIB sheet f510016, there is nothing that states only bulk spirits can be transferred.  Even section 27 CFR § 19.405 talks about shipments in "packages" 

However looking a 27 CFR 19.402 The following is stated.

The IRC allows a proprietor to transfer and receive spirits, wines, and industrial alcohol as provided in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this section.

(a) Spirits. Bulk spirits or denatured spirits may be transferred in bond between the bonded premises of plants qualified under 26 U.S.C. 5171 or 26 U.S.C. 5181 in accordance with §§ 19.403 and 19.733. However, spirits or denatured spirits produced from petroleum, natural gas, or coal may not be transferred to alcohol fuel plants.

(b) Wine. Wines may be transferred:

(1) From a bonded wine cellar to the bonded premises of a distilled spirits plant;

(2) From the bonded premises of a distilled spirits plant to a bonded wine cellar; and

(3) Between the bonded premises of distilled spirits plants.

(c) Alcohol for industrial purposes. Alcohol bottled for industrial purposes in accordance with § 19.366 and subpart S of this part, may be transferred between the bonded premises of distilled spirits plants in the same manner as provided in §§ 19.403 through 19.407 for bulk distilled spirits."

Where bulk spirits is defined as "Bulk distilled spirits. The term “bulk distilled spirits” means distilled spirits in a container having a capacity in excess of 1 gallon."

Is the column on top of your boiler? or offset to be after it?  While it is totally possible to adjust the settings on small column to produce a congener rich spirit, its much easier to run and clean a pot still.

I always recommend getting equipment with a column off to the side instead of installed on the boiler itself, this allows for a lot more flexibility in the way you distill. Especially if you do distill a number of different spirits or desire a "lighter" distillate for blending with your congener rich spirits.

It all depends on the quality of the water. Not all city water is "good" for our needs.

Some of my clients use city water, but it is so filled with chlorine and chloramine that it has to be thoroughly filtered and treated in order to be usable to ferment.

Others use well water that just need to be softened to take the iron out and its good to go. You will need to have pre-treated water for your boiler, so you will probably end up doing some softening/carbon filtering plus adding chemicals for just that.

Depending on what your production goals are and what spirits you want to produce you should be able to come up with some pretty good estimates of what your total water usage will be. If you need any help with that be sure to reach out, I would definitely be able to help with some of those calcs.

So there is a large amount of variability in running each particular type of still, theoretically you can make adjustments to how you operate a column still to get those outputs. The main difference is that for a continuous column you are feeding in wash so you have to maintain a balance on how much you compress specific parts of the distillate. 
 

In a column if you have the ability to tap spirit at different points in the column you will be able to “pull” from different sections which can give you a great amount of flexibility. Some stills unfortunately do not have that as an option. 
 

In a pot still, you have a single batch to manage, so you simply just compress the heads to the degree you desire, collect them and then collect what you want until you get to tails. 
 

It mainly comes down to the understanding of the system/process and skill of the distiller. 

I think that has a great color for an espresso vodka, it lets your clientele know that you aren't just throwing some artificial flavoring in it.

Hey Mike,

Just curious how often do the ventricular filters need to be swapped out? I see a system typically would run about $3,000-5000 with it mounted on a cart and all the hoses, maybe more with an additional pump. 

Most startups are looking to pinch pennies, so I can get them setup for about $800 using gravity and granular. Gradually the granular loses effect but it’s only about $100 a cubic foot bag. So it’s not too bad to swap that out. Even if they want to be conservative and swap it out fairly regularly it would take a long time to get to the amount of the lenticular setup.  

Have you cleaned the still recently? If you have too much oxidation on the copper of your still, it may not be cleaning up the distillate the way it used to. Also with your botanicals, you said you refreshed them, did you switch sources for them?

1 hour ago, needmorstuff said:

I am getting more people tell me they use a cartridge, on and off this forum. Some just loop the liquid and pump it round a circuit for a few hours at a slow rate to increase the contact time.

You said it right there, the main thing is contact time with the charcoal. You can pump it, use gravity, or any other means you want to pass it through. As long as you have a system that works for you go for it.

The main thing is you don't want to do a single pass through a cartridge like @richard1 mentioned. Doing that is a waste of time and money because the contact time is so short its not really polishing your product. It literally is just a filter at that short of CT.  You can pass multiple times through a filter housing with recirculation and a pump, but then you have to babysit it. Otherwise you can get a gravity setup, and just set it and forget it.  

It might be good to jump on a call to discuss, if you have some time later this week, I would be happy to go through your process for you to try and help identify any issues I see.

You most likely could match the threads and put a barbed fitting on the hose side.  

If you cannot determine the threads on your own, or the manufacturer is unable to help you out.  I would visit any machine shop or possibly even a competent mechanic, they should be able to help you figure out the thread pitch.

Once you know the threads you might have to buy or make an adapter to make it work with an off-the-shelf barbed fitting, but then you wont run into this issue again.

I would recommend reaching out to them after logging in to check on the status of your permit.  The TTB has been quick to respond to my clients as of late.

The last three who filed, had received a response with some minor corrections to make within 2-3 weeks.  

If you have not logged into your account I would do that today to see if there have been any updates.