HedgeBird

5 and .5 micron filters in series is what typically gets recommended..

1 hour ago, Thatch said:

When is it revenue, when you sell it to the state or when you ultimately sell it?  If the state pays you 50% up front (just using 50% as an example), is that revenue since you haven’t really sold it yet, or is it some sort of deposit.  

Sounds like there could potentially be multiple sales creating revenue at various times..  You are acting as both a producer and a retailer, who is selling to the state, buying from the state and selling to the end customer.  Its probably revenue two separate times (or three), and an expense once.  You did not mention payments to the state, but presumably you have to make those.

Sale to State as wholesaler - Receive 50% wholesale payment - sales revenue
Sale to end Customer as retailer - Receive 100% retail payment - sales revenue
Bill from the state to retailer - Pay 100% distributor cost - sales expense
Sale to State as wholesaler - Receive 50% wholesale payment - sales revenue

What are the payment terms from them as a distributor, and to them as a retailer?   Are they making you guys pay (as the retailer) for your own liquor in advance, and then not paying you (as the producer) for 60 days?
 

Paul - Are you asking for your buyers to have any paperwork or other license when you sell them bulk (not in a retail container) tax-paid alcohol?  

What are the options available for bulk sales excluding sales to another DSP?
For example if I want to provide bulk alcohol to a local vinegar manufacturer, who will never retail consumable alcohol, do they still need to register as a DSP or are there other options?

Additionally  would anything prevent a DSP from receiving a label approval for neutral spirits or alcohol bottled at 190 proof? 

Thanks!

Local code official is recognizing the Barrel Exception in Chapter 50 of the 2015 IFC.  Initially he said this exempted me from all chapter 50 MAQ limitations and also requirements of hazardous storage, so I was good to go with the non-sprinklered building I am eyeing up.

After further review and reading the 2015 IFC "Code Commentary" he has revised his opinion and now believes the barrel exception in Chapter 50 only applies to the MAQs, and not the hazardous classification, and as such the building would still need to meet IBC H3 Occupancy requirements according the the Chapter 3 use groups.   I have not been able to find a copy of the 2015 IFC/IBC Code Commentary online, so I am not sure whats in there that points him in this direction.

Code official is willing to consider arguments in my favor that would allow me to use this building, but only if I can provide him info to counter his interpretation.  

Can anyone provide info/arguments that the Barrel Exception in Chapter 50 of the 2015 IFC would indeed exclude whiskey barrels from not just the MAQ, but also H3 Occupancy, or that whiskey in barrels is not a Hazardous material/not an H3 occupancy.
Or perhaps is there an argument that this is an F1 Classification, and the Barrel Exception in Chapter 50 excludes me for any MAQs that an F1 classification might have?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have!

On 8/25/2019 at 4:57 PM, Allan said:

I'm wondering if your run-of-the-mill (think DeWalt, Aircat, Etc...just search "pneumatic drill" on amazon and you'll get the breed) tools would be acceptable for mixing a small tank (70 gallon stainless variable capacity) of booze? 

I deal mostly in lots of this size...so I'll empty a barrel and proof it down. Approach thus far has been to pump-over. That's fine. But I'd prefer a more efficient method for mixing re: proofing down. I Know that the ideal would be a multi-thousand dollar "ATEX" industrial pneumatic mixer (the kind I see which are designed for 55 gallon drums and such) would be the "obvious" answer. Still. 

We use pneumatic mixers and have never had an issue.  

You can find comparable mixers on eBay at a fraction of the price:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/50Gallon-Pneumatic-Bracket-Mixer-Tank-Barrel-Air-Mix-Stainless-Steel-Clip-Paint/173855013130?epid=2256269422&hash=item287a90f90a:g:8fMAAOSwptZcPWdq

Use some combination of the follow words on eBay and you should find lots of options that will be better than a hand drill/driver:  pneumatic, stainless, sanitary, air, mixer, agitator, drum, barrel, etc.

Mixing alcohol and water also produces an exothermic reaction that produces heat and can change the actual volume.  Waiting a day for these variables to subside can make it easier to take proof readings.  Less of an issue if doing things by weight and not volume but could still mess with your temperature correction when taking a proof reading.

There are also many believers in letting fresh distilled spirits sit open to the air for a few days.  (I think the idea being the more volatile, less tasty elements will evaporate first giving you a better product)  Personally I don't feel this is necessary if your doing good cuts..

Seems like your predecessor was possibly combing these two practices into one step..

24 minutes ago, Leisips said:

Thanks for your response, yes broad topic, you detailed break down is helpful. Not accounting for real estate, constructing or coding here. Looking to understand what renting wharehouse space for 20 barrel for four years would approximately cost. Any ballpark idea?

Ballpark $200 to $2,000 per month. 

You hardly need any space in order to store 20 barrels, but if your leasing secured commercial warehouse space with fire suppression and dock access, safe to assume they are going to want to rent you more than the 300 Sq/Ft you probably need.  So thats my high end.  Low end you rent/lease a shipping container for something like $200 a month..

Probably the easiest option would be to get an already existing DSP to store your barrels for you.  I will happily store your 20 barrels for $500 per month.  $25 per barrel, per month.  Loading/unloading, insurance, TIB paperwork assistance, negotiable.  Im sure others would do it for less.

20 hours ago, Leisips said:

I'm looking to understand the costs of barrel aging a product so I can project a financial model for a small to medium-sized spirits brand:

How many barrels of aged spirit would make the project commercially viable? 10, 20 40 barrels?

What is the cost of wharehousing for four years?

Cost of wharehousing maintenance?

What are other costs associated with aging spirits?

You are asking questions that are very broad in scope, making it difficult for anyone to be able to provide much of helpful response. 

Where are you located, do you own a building, are you renting a building, are you building a building, are you getting free space from your brother in law, will you have sprinklers, how much risk are you willing to accept, what does your location jurisdiction require code wise, does the building have a loading dock, does it have a garage door, is it accessible by truck, does it have heating/cooling, what is the leas term required -- these are just a few of the question that might determine the cost of barrel aging.

I would also be inclined to say that the cost of barrel aging is probably (or at least should be) one of the smaller costs to be factored in when starting a small to medium sized spirits brand.

2 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

What am I missing?

Probably the fact that our chiller is located outside and subject to freezing temperatures so requires glycol.  Even if it was inside, I also am not familiar enough with this stuff to know if we could take the chiller we have, that is currently running sub-freezing glycol and just change its temperature set-point to 50F and swap the glycol for water. My assumption is/was that making that change is not an option??

2 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

What's the benefit of running sub-freezing temperatures and using glycol?  My jackets and condensers all operate just fine with 50f coolant.

No one has suggested running glycol to the still or mash tun, only the fermenters.  Currently the still and mash tun are plumbed to the cold water tank (our temp set to about 45F), and this is what MG mentions doing.

Your points are probably all valid for someone setting up their system from scratch, but I am using an existing chiller purchased and used by a brewery in my building..

2 hours ago, MG Thermal Consulting said:

You need to add a small plate exchanger and second pump. Put globe valves on discharge of pumps so you can balance flow on HTX.  I have pix from one of clients, if you want to email me, I'll send them over.

This is basically what we would need to do to convert our Glycol circulating chiller to a water circulating chiller?  I assume your thinking a cross flow type plate exchanger and can see how that would address the problem, but with the complication of an additional pump.  (basically adds a cross flow plate exchanger and circulating pump, but eliminates the need for a jacketed cold water tank)  This would also allow us to still run some things (fermenters perhaps) directly with glycol..  Makes sense.

18 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Poly Tank - chillers directly cooling the water.  

The chiller we have is glycol, so I dont think this is an option for us, unless we change chillers.  Might need to start hunting for a brewers bright tank, as they typically have both jackets and insulation.  

Curious what type of tanks everyone is using for cold water reservoirs?  

We currently have a 300 gallon stainless tank with a built in stainless coil we feed the glycol from the chiller through .  We wrapped it with a layer of rubber foam insulation, but its hardly what one would consider properly insulated.  Tank was purchased used for salvage company.  We need to upgrade to a larger reservoir (probably something along the lines of 600 gallons)  Seems like there are options for insulated plastic water tanks, but they don't have heat exchanges, etc.   

Just curious if anyone has found a good solution.

Hey Silk - Tried sending you a msg, but not able to via the forum email system.  Would love to touch base on the phone if you have time...

Just found this previous thread that seems to point me in the right directions..

Looks like the RKI Ps2 might be what I need.

Looking for suggestions on alcohol vapor detectors/alarms.  Ideally trying to find something that can automatically switch on an exhaust fan once a certain concentration of alcohol vapor is detected. Also curious if anyone has used something more sophisticated that can tie into an existing alarm panel (that monitors the smoke/heat/sprinkler vales) and would send an alarm or supervisory notice to my monitoring company at certain concentrations of alcohol.

Also interested in simple detectors that just sound an audible alarm

Thanks!

On 10/9/2018 at 9:42 PM, Glenlyon said:

The pump is automatic and will deliver less or more water depending on the demand created by the mix of open and closed valves. Close all the valves and the pump will stop. Open them all and the system runs full out.

Do you mind sharing what kind of pump you are using?  We are using a pretty standard well pump to circulate our cooling water, so its kicks on/off when you open/close valves but it sounds like your pump may throttle itself to some extent?  I think ours is just on or off.

On 5/6/2019 at 2:01 PM, mvierth said:

Hey, everyone!

I'm in the market right now for a steam-jacketed 600-gallon mash tun. No need for a false bottom, as we ferment and distill on-grain. 

Something  $20,000 or less would be amazing. 

Feel free to respond or DM. Thanks! 

I have a 300 gallon mash tun with cooling jacket and agitator that I need to get moved out.  I know its not what your looking for, but I am located close to you, and would part with this thing for scrap costs.  Could also probably provide delivery to MD.  Hit me up if curious..

Also found this smart switch designed for dyers/pool pumps/etc that will get you up to 40amps at 220v ..

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MBIRF5W/ref=asc_df_B00MBIRF5W5318399

and this one designed for stoves that gets you up to 50 amps..

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B074BT61NK/ref=sspa_mw_detail_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&th=1

If you really wanted to do this I think you would need to get a relay that is sized for the power going to your still/elements and that is switched by 120v power.  Then get a 120v wi-fi receptacle and use that to provide power to the relay switch..

I can see it now.. “Alexa, turn on the still!”

16 hours ago, Patio29Dadio said:

Not where I live... not by a long-shot.  Start a craft brewery for $1MM.   Start a craft distillery for $3MM.  Anything less and you are fooling yourself, IMO.

So basically me, and every other craft distiller I know, have been successfully fooling ourselves for years now.. 

59 minutes ago, MichaelAtTCW said:

Hey @HedgeBird

All the air and liquid ports on the G70 are replaceable and swappable. If you look at the ports you'll see little pull tabs that hold them in place. Flojet makes tons of different connection styles. They come to us with 3/4" barb fittings in/out, but we also stock 1/2" barb, 1/2" NPT threads, and 3/8" tube push-connect (aka John Guest).

The air inlet it is less flexible. I've only seen 1/4" barb fittings for that port. As Tom notes, the short length of hose to whatever-fitting-you-want is the best option.

It may seem like a stupid design, but Flojet's typical end user is OEMs who are going to install it into some other kind of assembly, like a beverage dispensing machine. When we first introduced the G70 into distilleries I think it took Flojet by surprise a little that they had a "hit" on their hands with the little guy, as they were marketing it towards more chemical applications.

Thanks for the great info Michael!  Am I able to order 1/2 barb fittings from you guys?  Really appreciate the input.

Our current diaphragm pump used for spirits is hitting the end of its life, and I am looking to put a new Flojet G70 diaphram into service.  I purchased this a ways back but never got it setup as the air and liquid input/outputs are really annoying.  It seems to have a 1/4" barb for air input, and 3/4 barbs for liquid in/out.  From what I can tell there is no way to remove these barbs to replace with threaded fittings.

This means I need a 1/4" barb to standard male air hose quick connect, a short piece of 1/4" hose and two hose clamps to make this usable with our regular quick-connect fitted air hoses..  What seems like absolutely stupid arrangement.  On the liquid side I will need to go from the 3/4 barb to a 3/4 barb x 1/5" tri-clamp fitting, again using a short section of 3/4" hose and a pair of hose barbs. 

I got this unit as it seems pretty popular on these forums, so just curious if this is what everyone else is doing, or if perhaps I just a non-typical model with barb connections.  If you are using this pump, could you post a picture of it with whatever fittings you have added?

Thanks!

33 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

Below is a pic of one of our centrifugal pumps.  It is self priming and good for high temps.  They work great for CIP pumps and beer pumps.  We have them available in different sizes and capacities and we have them with UL listed explosion proof US made Baldor motors.

Are these listed on your website?  Would love more info on sizes, costs, etc.

19 hours ago, DaufuskieDistillery29915 said:

Looking for recommendations on a flow meter that can be used on a 1/2" tube to keep track of gallons or liters transferred from tank to tank . 

Gallons of water, mash or alcohol?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sensus-SRII-5-8-Brass-Water-Meter-Used-Includes-Cover-Readable-Face/292314775817?epid=760844780&hash=item440f518109:g:B8gAAOSwaEhZLfQc

We use these on our condensers to track/view cooling water usage. They are great as they give you an easy visual to confirm that water is flowing, and at what rate, they track gallons used, are accurate, cheap and look cool. 

https://www.amazon.com/Save-a-Drop-P0550-Water/dp/B0058EOC5M/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=water+flow+meter+digital&qid=1554473063&s=gateway&sr=8-5

We used something like this to track water going into the mash tun..

For alcohol or mash I have no idea..