sailorman9

I'm applying for a label of a rum that I ferment, distill, and bottle. This spirit is carbon filtered.

Under Pt. 5.27 it looks as though I can file for CERTIFICATE OF EXEMPTION FROM LABEL APPROVAL. Is this correct?

Also, I'm confused about Bottled by, distilled by or both. I already have the village name and state under "Rum" and near the brand name; I am using this for marketing. Do I also need the other statement on the bottle side?

Further confusion about commodity: since the spirit is a rum, do I still need to say "Sugar Cane Products" or is that redundant, because everyone knows that rum is made from sugar cane?

Thank you,

The TTB received the application on Nov. 3, 2010

Approved on Dec. 30, 2010

The case worker found problems with my packet. I had to get my lease changed and I had to have the bond sent back to include the word "Processor" for my bottling operation. The TTB works on your application when they want and ignore it for weeks at a time. I coresponded often in a professional manner. It's important to use the correct terminology right from the beginning (when the architect draws the plans).

Curt

Carbon filtering doesn't have to be done at room temperature, but nonetheless I would not recommend using carbon. If used in the wrong manner you will strip out color and more importantly flavor.

Are you saying that you use a different filter medium, or that you don't filter at all (other that sediment filtering)?

Thanks

I'll respectfully offer a few opinions....so take this for what its worth, as there's a million ways to accomplish your task.

1st, don't use white sugar. It's basically dead weight, flavorwise, and stresses the yeast as there's nothing there in terms of minerals or anything else, frankly, that will give you interesting flavors. As the very least, use cane syrup instead. Lots more nutrients, lots more going on. YMMV. This is a sticky wicket, as I know that many are using it for "rum" in the US, but it's about as low a road as you can travel. I support all of my fellow distillers, and support everything you want to make, but consider that there's a lot more characterful substrates out there. It just requires a bit of sourcing. Look to St. George.

2nd, don't add the sugar in stages. One and done. There's no good reason to add it in several steps. if you wish, add a kraeusen to mop up the last few degrees of sugar at the end of fermentation, but raising the sugar content after primary fermentation isn't good for the yeast. Give them a nice, steady, predictable environment.

3rd, don't mix a fermentation. Without getting overly dorky and scientific, it creates negative congeners. It's one of the big things that brought Schlitz down (not kidding). No need to stir a liquid fermentation.

4th, drop your temperature back down to where it was 1st.

5th, simplify your acidification regime. Pick one until you're comfortable, and then play around when you're getting clean fermentations.

6th, simplify your yeast nutrition. Put in a call to White Labs if you'd like. They can help you with one single source for yeast food that will get you where you need to go.

Be sure to oxygenate your yeast, as well as the mash.

Please remember I'm trying to help, so take this for what it's worth.

Thank you,

Are you saying to oxygenate the mash while the yeast is doing its thing? On this last batch, I aerated for 50 hours before the pitch, but not after.

I would really be interest to know what Bill got to say about this. This looks like something that we would have had a field day when I was in winemaking school many years ago. Well, let me put my two cents in. The smell of rotten eggs is known to be H2S (hydrogen sulfide) its a bi-product of poor fermentation. If you had taken an analysis on it before the fermentation you would have seen that this product that you are trying to ferment is low in fermenting nitrogen. Dap will increase the fermenting nitrogen if used at the proper time. The best way to use it 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3. Go-Ferm helps the fermenting yeast into a good start, however, if you would have used ferment K to the recommended dose prior or at the same time of the innoculation you would have noticed less chance of H2S because ferment K also contains Dep in it. This is another reason why I like to use ferment K into 3 parts to achieve a smoother, steady fermentation all the way down to minus 2. The vinegar smell that you are picking-up is a pretty heavy dose of VA. On this subject we can talk for 2 days because there is approxiately a million things that could have gone wrong and give you that. That would be a great questions for Bill Owens, Bill would you distill that?

The yeast didn't contact the Dap until the pitch. The manufacturer claims that Fermaid K should be added after the end of the lag phase and again at 1/3 sugar depletion, unless it's different for a all sugar mash. I've read that Dap is toxic to the yeast at rehydration.

Obviously the 200 grams of Dap was insufficient with the initial 200 lbs of sugar. What is VA?

Thanks,

Curt

Sailorman said he's "fermenting sugar".

If (if) he's fermenting processed white sugar out of a sack, that's the main problem right there. Well, that, and he's adding everything but the kitchen sink into the liquid (hey, you asked).

What's the Plato, Brix, OG, whatever of the "mash", sailorman.

I'm trying to hit a SG of 1100, but doing it in steps. I started out with 1045 and then kept adding sugar to keep it there. I probably added enough sugar to hit SG 1065. I put 315 lbs sugar in 200 gal water.

When I did batches in 5 gallon buckets, it worked better. The main differences are the bucket had no mixer and the heat was around 74 degrees. Now I have a mixer and I heated the mash to 86 degrees. When the mash is rolling along the temp is 88 degrees.

I use a sanke keg instead of a cornelius keg, that way I have 3 times the volume. I modified a 2" stainless steel cap with a CO2 barb and a 23" copper tube to get the spirit from the bottom of the keg. 15 psi would only get the spirit up about 6' so I use considerablly more pressure to get it up the required 11'. I have a design to automate the system by using a sensor in the funnel attached to a circuit wired to a electronic valve. This way when the spirit gets low in the funnel, the valve will open allowing CO2 to enter the keg and pushing the spirit up to the funnel. I still haven't found a sensor that will work in a high proof environment, so right now I just have to do it manually.

I would be interested in taking a look at your design for the copper filter system.

Curt

I was told that mash smelling like rotten eggs was a sign of a lack of nitrogen. When it happened I added Dap and the smell went away.

Yesterday my mash smelled kind of like vinegar and burned my eyes. I added Yeast Hulls and Fermaid K and the vinegar smell went away, but my eyes still burned.

I am distilling sugar and using tartaric, malic, and citric acid to lower the ph. I use Go-Ferm, when hydrating the yeast. I'm using bananas (black), wheat gluten, Dap, Fermaid K, and yeast hulls to help the fermentation along. Are there any other chemicals that I could try using?

Also: does anyone have a list of what smell goes with what problematic condition the mash is having?

Thank you,

Curt Naegeli

The North Woods Distillery LLC

135 W Main St.

635 Business 141 N #9

Coleman, WI 54112

920-897-5395

C. 920-819-6083

Taste the Spirits of the North Woods

Is it true that carbon filtering must be done at room temperature? In my new distillery in Northern Wisconsin, I plan on doing the filtering in a spot where the ceiling is high. This room is unheated and right now it's about 20 degrees in there. Will the be problematic?

Read NFPA-Uniform Fire Codes-Hazardous Materials Codes:

4.0.1 Bottles < 4L

4.0.2 Exemptions & (9) Storage in Wood Casks

4.0.3 Capped containers in unlimited quantities

My architect knew of these laws and wrote me an F1 classification, which was approved. It was done, not to help me get started, but because it is the law.

I copied this awile ago from somewhere in the forum:

I'll add something here that has been helpful to me along with the exception codes that were listed above (there are more exceptions in the IFC if anyone is interested). Guy, I noticed in another post that you got a H3 Hazardous Occupancy permit which made your local fire officials happy. In my opinion you have painted yourself in a corner by admitting your products are hazardous. By steering your local building/fire guys in the direction that you are manufacturing a FOOD GRADE PRODUCT, there is no hazard.... if this were a hazardous material you would not be able to sell it to the public for consumption (I think the only alcoholic beverage that has an MSDS label on it is everclear). That is exactly the scope of the exceptions in the IFC Chapter 27 and Chapter 34 codes: to allow beer, wine, and spirits to remain on-site without being bound by hazardous/combustible/flammable code definitions.

So, my suggestion to anyone that reads this thread is to look these codes up and let your local officials know that you are making a consumable food grade product that is not dangerous. Do not give in to MSDS sheets for your spirits (required for non-consumable hazardous materials), H3 occupancy (manufacturing fireworks and explosives fall into this occupancy category), or any other forms of subjective bargaining to insinuate what we do is dangerous. Trust me, if you have another distillery in the state, or even a neighboring state, that is bound by all of the hazardous regulations you will fall victim to it too. If we all set the precedent that what we are doing is safe and can back that up with ICC codes, everyone will be better off in the long run. This all, of course, is subject to local approval but what I have written here will give you plenty of meat to argue the point.

I have more on this issue, but this pretty much covers the appropriate code exceptions for distilling applications.

Bryan Schultz

RoughStock Distillery Inc.

Bozeman Montana

www.montanawhiskey.com

I should have clarified this point. As an example, my absinthe is exempt using the above rule because I go from the still, to a barrel, back into a processing tank, back to a barrel, and then into a bottle...and the lowest abv is 65%. IMHO, this exemption has the fingerprints of the big whiskey lobby all over it. And I thank them for it.

So, according to the code, I never "Store" my distilled spirits. It's either in processing, barrels, or bottles.

Another code I found during my investigation:

NFPA 400 (new version of NFPA 30): Hazardous Materials Code

__________

We must know how to talk to these building inspectors; not many have read the regs from cover to cover, because the documents are so large. Just like dealing with the TTB, many have their own oppinions.

Good Luck,

Curt

I just got 25 Kilos for $59.99. thevintnervault.com

I have been using the Vintner Vault for many of my supplies (ie. Go-Ferm, Dap, Fermaid-K, tartaric acid, Yeast Hulls, Oak chips, ect). They good prices, but are located out in California. Shipping times are long and cost are excessive. Does anyone know of a low cost distributor in the Mid-west? It would be great to get everything I need from one place, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

Also what suppliers are used for bar supplies?

Thanks

A few months back I infused pears with 180 proof rum (double distilled and carbon filtered). Let it sit a couple days with the pears and redistilled with the fruit in the boiler. Used 3 lbs of pears to 1/2 gallon rum. Some seeds made it in the boiler and a couple of those were cut. The result didn't have much pear flavor, but it did have a bitter taste, I think from the seeds.

The same problem happened when I infused rum with strawberries. The strawberries and seeds went into the boiler. The result was extremely bitter and undrinkable. That batch ended up as a fuel additive in the gas tank of my car.

Here is some good research about pears http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/articles/pear_lees/index.htm

Can you tell me who underwrites your bonds. I have been turned down on 3 times so far, I have had to educate the bonding companies about the bonds I need; they seem clueless. I think the refusal to provide bonding is because I am asking for so much. For a start-up I'm seeking a Unit bond - $10,000 for operations, $15,000 withdrawl, and $4,000 state even though I can't reach this level of production until after the 9th month. I'm sure many of you already went through this and finally found a company that understands this.

I want to produce a Flavored Rum at 45 proof. This spirit has more than 2.5% sugar and natural flavoring. I have been back and forth through the regs and I can't understand how Bacardi makes a Coconut Flavored Rum that is 42 proof. I want to call my spirit Flavored Rum, but it's not 60 proof. Am I missing something?

Lee, You make a few good points:

1) yes it is the objective to win the quality, but if you can compete with the price point as well you can really take on the big guy.

2)getting a pallet of each...I agree not a good move, so how about only sell 1L bottles and only buy the 1L in pallete. Off premise will have no problem having the 1L bottles in place of the 750ml and on premise will have a slightly larger bottle on their top shelf to stand out against the same big boys.

Side note: Lee killer website, I love your setup and hope to visit by the years end. Perhaps we can talk about a few ideas some time.

Logan

Thanks for your input everyone! Logan, I agree the 1L bottle is better, but twice as expensive. If I try to keep my packaging costs down to 10% to 15%, I can't use the bigger bottle. I put my order in today for the 750ml bottle.

Curt

I have talked to a few tavern owners and they would rather buy a 1L product than a 750ml. What is your experience? Is the 750ml bottle a harder sell to taverns?

I know that when one makes Vodka the proof needs to be 190. Once this proof has been achieved and flavored, can the proof be reduced on the final run and still be called Vodka?

Try Ullmers Dairy Equipment: http://www.ullmers-dairyequipment.com/

also note the Rick does stainless steel welds extremely resonably priced. This place is 40 miles away from me.

I got my hydrometers from Nova-tech. Large selection across a range of proofs, as well as ones for brix, baume, etc.

Does your TTB agent require you to calibrate?

Be prepared for years of work if starting from ground zero. However, an amendment can be added by any legislator (if I remember high school civics correctly) and it can make changes quickly- it doesn't mean the whole bill fails if the amendment fails. Love the brewers, but we need to look out for our own interests just as they are only looking out for theirs. You want to cut time and get it done? Go the amendment route.

Ways and Means Members of the 111th Congress

Democrats Republicans

Sander M. Levin, MI-12 Acting Chairman

Charles B. Rangel, NY-15

Fortney Pete Stark, CA-13

Jim McDermott, WA-07

John Lewis, GA-05

Richard E. Neal, MA-02

John S. Tanner, TN-08

Xavier Becerra, CA-31

Lloyd Doggett, TX-25

Earl Pomeroy, ND-at large

Mike Thompson, CA-01

John B. Larson, CT-01

Earl Blumenauer, OR-03

Ron Kind, WI-03

Bill Pascrell Jr., NJ-08

Shelley Berkley, NV-01

Joseph Crowley, NY-07

Chris Van Hollen, MD-08

Kendrick Meek, FL-17

Allyson Y. Schwartz, PA-13

Artur Davis, AL-07

Danny K. Davis, IL-07

Bob Etheridge, NC-02

Linda T. Sanchez, CA-39

Brian Higgins, NY-27

John A. Yarmuth, KY-03

Dave Camp, MI-04 Ranking Member

Wally Herger, CA-02

Sam Johnson, TX-03

Kevin Brady, TX-08

Paul Ryan, WI-01

Eric Cantor, VA-07

John Linder, GA-07

Devin Nunes, CA-21

Pat Tiberi, OH-12

Ginny Brown-Waite, FL-05

Geoff Davis, KY-04

Dave G. Reichert, WA-08

Charles W. Boustany Jr., LA-07

Dean Heller, NV-02

Peter J. Roskam, IL-06

We could all submit a proposal to our Representitive. I read some good ideas for the proposal on this thread. Someone could write a letter and we could all copy and paste it to the proper Rep.

A dephlegmator is basically like the second column of a Coffey Still. See Diagram. A Coffey still is continuous, but for our use we can put a boiler on the bottom of the first column. The coolant on the Coffey still is the beer getting preheated before entering the first column. For our purposes we will use water as coolant which will just be poured down the drain.

A Lab Tech at TTB told me to pour a 100 ml sample in a petri dish and place it in a warm oven over night. When all is evaporated, weigh what is left and subtract.

Has anyone discussed how this co-op would work? some person handles the bulk purchase and storage of a container load of glass and then what, is responsible for shipping out to whomever else is in the co-op?

I think we are all interested in paying less for glass, or achieving bulk pricing, but has their been any discussion about the logistics?

If a truck and driver were hired, he could pick up a full load of glass from the factory and then deliver to each one of our distilleries. This way we would store our own glass.

I'm also looking for a scale. 500 lb. capacity. While lbs and half lbs would work, lbs and oz would be best. Does anyone know where one can be purchased? Used would be a bonus.

Thanks