delaware_phoenix

If you ask the average person, they'll honestly tell you that home distilling is legal. Making your own beer is legal. Making your own wine and mead are legal. They don't see why you couldn't make your own spirits; that such a thing would be illegal.

Check your state regulations though under your ABC laws. They may have different requirements.

Novatech has a number of different handheld refractometers for under $100. Look for one that covers the ºBrix range you want and to what accuracy. The Atago brand has both digital and analog version, many with automatic temperature correction.

http://www.novatech-usa.com/Products/Vee-Gee-Handheld-Refractometers

http://www.novatech-usa.com/Products/Atago-Brix-Refractometers

On second thought however Scott, it might be a good thing. Maybe you should change the name of your course to "Catoctin Creek Distilling Workshop" almost as Ralph suggests. That way when anyone that has attended your class, they'll say that "Catoctin Creek Distilling Workshop" they attended was very informative, and they learned so much. Not only are you promoting your own course, but also your own products.

Just a thought.

For small businesses, it's the same across the board. Don't matter whether it's a brewery, winery, distillery. Small means you pay more for everything since you cannot achieve the same economies of scale as a larger producer. All your raw materials are more expensive. Instead of being able to buy a million bottles at a time, you buy a pallet or two. You have to use generic off the shelf bottles, because you can't afford the quantities necessary for a custom bottle. Nearly all the non-control states require you to use a distributor, by law, who'll mark your product up more than 100% and let it sit in a warehouse because they can make more in 5 minutes selling yet another vodka than they will in a year of selling your product, assuming they want to bother at all in trying to sell it. We're often making unusual niche products that don't have a broad appeal, and since we're prohibited by state law from selling direct to license holders in other states, we're not able to reach our special customers very easily.

Also, distilleries (all sizes) are very good job multipliers. I think the number I read somewhere was 1.3. That;s fairly high I think. By promoting distilleries, you promote farms growing grain and raising beef and pork and chicken. All natural, not factory farmed because we support the family farm.

Because of our inability to manifest economy of scale, all forms of taxes and insurance become greater burdens on our bottom line. 99% of what we do is similar to a microbrewery, yet our worker's comp rates are the same as a roofing contractor (at least in NY this is true), which limits our ability to hire workers. For a $10/hour full time employee, NY wants $2400/year/employee.

Senator/Representative, don't you want to help small business?

Maybe I could think up some more reasons, but it's early in the morning.

Hi folks. I wanted to bump this thread as I've been looking at boilers and am a little confused.

In pricing out steam boilers, I'm finding that there's significant price differences between a home heating steam system rated to the same BTU's as a similarly sized commercial steam boiler. The numbers I'm being told are about $4,000 for a home system in the 150,000 BTU net output range and $10-12K for a 6 BHP commercial boiler (168,000 net BTU/h). The brands I'm seeing are Columbia, Burnham, Fulton. I'm looking for a steam boiler with a net capability of at least 130,000 BTU/h, so that's about 4 BHP, so practically a 6 BHP boiler is needed. All these prices don't include installation.

The prices don't include the return makeup water. Reading the earlier discussion tells me that something like that is really important.

But why the big price difference for the same amount of BTUs?

Another question is ignition: the commercial steam boilers I've looked at so far all seem to have electronic ignition. Some home heating steam boilers can be found that still use a pilot. Is there a specific reason for or against one or the other? Is a lag in the steam boiler in generating steam one of the difference in these systems? A home system can take it's time. An extra minute isn't going to cause the house to get cold. But would an extra minute be a problem in a distilling application?

Suggestions and comments welcome.

The regulations also preclude issuance of a DSP license for operation in a shed, outdoors, and a few other places. Basically, no moonshine-like operations will be granted permits for operating a Distilled Spirits Plant. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the real reason for the regs being what they are. Post-prohibition, they wanted to keep the illicit producers out of the newly legal business of beverage alcohol.

While it's possible that someone with a detached garage might get a permit from TTB, depending on the location, zoning might be a problem. Usually zoning laws try and separate (even minimally) industrial activities from residences. It's true that many people operate what might be called an industrial activity from their garage: a wood shop, sculptor, metal working; I don't think you need a permit from the Feds to do any of those activities.

So while there's no ban on home distiller per se, the current regulations preclude issuance of a DSP permit is most situations where someone would want to practice home distilling. Also, I don't know if it's all states, but I imagine most certainly have laws that state that even owning a still (without a permit obviously) is a crime. Usually a misdemeanor.

No, the NYSLA operates on the principle that if something is not explicitly allowed, it is disallowed. And that means if caught doing such things, your license is subject to revocation. I'm not even testing those waters.

The State Senator sends out flyers promoting the wonderful things he's done for the area. I remember one recent one where he was touting how he kept drunk drivers off the roads. (I'm thinking, single-handedly?) Now that's a good thing, but my impression is that he's anti-alcohol. He had no interest in assisting me with my stalled application at the SLA in 2008.

Sorry, but I can't bring myself to try and suck up to sleaze politicians. So no free booze for them!

That's a standard price.

In my previous post I mentioned leaving 5% behind in the barrel, thus never emptying it out, so it's never a used barrel, it's always in use

Once you but whiskey into a barrel it's used. If you want to spend time with semantic games, go ahead. I think it'd be better to spend your time making whiskey (or whatever other spirit of your choice).

What you're describing sounds similar to a solara system that's used in Spain for the aging of sherry.

I know that I wouldn't want to maintain all the dump and gauging records for that. If you could get a variance from TTB to treat each system of barrels as a single unit the paperwork would be reasonable.

Yes, you'll need a permit from the state of California.

A bond is needed for covering the alcohol taxes due after you've sold spirits but before you make the tax payment. You'll need one to cover the Federal tax and another one for the State tax. Being in CA is good as there are lots of insurance agents for wineries, and they are the people to go to. If you cannot get a bond, you either have to self-fund your bond (figure from $16K on up). Without a bond you can't operate. But getting the bond is fairly late in the process (relatively speaking).

Start on your business plan. As part of that, you should make a list of all the equipment you need, and perhaps separate lists for each one listing the possible suppliers, prices, etc.

Bad credit isn't a show stopper, but it will make it difficult to borrow the money for your project, assuming you don't have lots of money already. Start now in cleaning up your credit.

You don't need to be an LLC. You can form a sole proprietorship. However, if in the future you do decide to have another partner, you'll have to change your business structure (with attendant revised applications to TTB).

Good luck.

To have it called rye whiskey, bourbon, wheat whiskey, etc it needs to be placed in new, charred oak barrels. There is no minimum time frame.

If placed is a used barrel, or a toasted barrel, it's whiskey distilled from [rye, bourbon, wheat] mash.

I imagine you have given thought to how big your stills will be, and your actual production? The way you're talking makes it sound like you want to put a big factory on your property.

The maximums you mention come to 90,000 liters a month. That's 25,000 gallons a month, about 800 gallons a day! 15 barrels (53 gallon) a day! W00T!

I think you need to say that your operation won't be any bigger than the usual barn with a couple silos in the area. That way your operation won't look out of place.

However, you need to get past the zoning commission, and they tend to be to responsive to local views. But at least folks are coming to talk to you about it. They won't complain to the state, that's not their way. Even though the zoning board hasn't even received your application yet, they know of you. Their approval is required for your project to even happen. And you'll need your exact plans and facts (e.g., how many trucks) to let them know the bad things they think will happen, won't.

With the completely dysfunctional government we have now in NY, I'd consider that wasted effort. So far they can't even pass a budget.

Ralph Erenzo of Tuthilltown has mentioned in the past that the SLA considers everything illegal unless explicitly allowed in the laws. That may well be unconstitutional, but I for one am not willing to spend lots of money on lawyers to try and find out. The SLA would probably consider the selling of "tasting flights" as operating an illegal and unlicensed bar. And my local State Senator only seems to help his buddies. Too bad he'll be unopposed again this year.

I don't think there's a lot of equipment for creating your mash. Of course, you could buy brand new a bunch of specialized equipment, or you can buy used equipment from the pharmaceutical/food industry and there are liquidators of this stuff all around the country.

If you're buying GNS for any reason, the HDPE barrels it comes in — cut the top off — and you have instant 35-40 gallon food grade fermenters, for free.

Now you just need a mash pump.

Bet you could do it for under 5 grand.

Maybe some of the more serious folks here will tell me I've been nipping a bit too much of my own juice, and maybe they're right. But you won't know until you look at other equipment and make a list and see what it all costs.

Well that's not legal for a regular old micro-distillery in New York. Even farm distilleries (or wineries) are not allowed to charge for samples.

And I've already had the secret agent spies from the SLA show up whining for a drink ("It's my birthday", seriously) and laughing at my equipment ("That still is so small! hahaha). Yes they do that here in NY, it's called their "enforcement unit". Our tax dollars at work.

Hi folks. Some of you may be aware of the Manhattan Cocktail Classic, a really exciting event May 14-18.

One of the off site events will be on Sunday May 16th in the latter afternoon (exact time almost decided) at Huckleberry Bar in Brooklyn. This is an awesome bar. Since some of us little people can't really afford to join in the main events (and promote our products at the same time) we have to create off site events. Stephanie Schneider and Andrew Boggs of Huckleberry Bar are hosting one such event. They're providing the bar staff, wait staff, bus staff, etc., food, a band and an intimate, one-of-a-kind setting where you or your rep can meet the end customer be it consumer or bartender and let people know you and your products exist. Here's Stephanie's blurb about the event:

Say goodbye to the maddening pace of Manhattan and join us in the wilds of Brooklyn for DEATH IN THE AFTERNOON… A GARDEN PARTY.

The owners of Huckleberry Bar, Stephanie Schneider (Gramercy Tavern, Blue Smoke, Hearth) and Andrew Boggs (Union Square Café, Blue Smoke), invite you to their first joint venture and Brooklyn’s first heavy weight cocktail bar. Opened in East Williamsburg in October 2007 and awarded Time Out New York’s Best New Bar 2008, Huckleberry Bar is an elegant refuge that gracefully tiptoes the line between the fancy and the fussy.

In homage to DEATH IN THE AFTERNOON, the cocktail that Hemingway created and made famous, we will be showcasing modern, hand-crafted, domestically produced Absinthes, Spirits and Bitters that have recently come to the market: St. George Absinthe, Delaware Phoenix, Death's Door Gin & Whiskey, Germain Robin Absinthe, ABSmeby Bittering Company to name a few. Join us in the beautiful Huckleberry Bar garden for a death in the afternoon cocktail amongst other delightful tipplings and delicious vittles. The sounds of JDT (Jason Domnarski Trio) will intoxicate you further with their decadently antiquated keys, subliminal effects and sharp song craft. Fun stuff for cutting edge tastes!

So join us in the green of the garden for great cocktails and spirits, delicious vittles, great music and people at Brooklyn's Huckleberry Bar! Rain or Shine

I'll be in attendance along with my spirits, and we'd like to see some more artisanal, craft spirits. I'm the only New York distiller there and we want to see more of them. Whether you make whiskey, gin, eau-de-vie. You should at the very least get a couple bottles of your spirits there, and for those that can help sponsor the event and help cover the costs all the better.

If your products aren't available in NY, maybe you should consider supporting this event so people in the know know that you exist.

Any questions, please direct them to Stephanie and she'll fill you in on details. Thanks and I look forward to seeing you there!

cheryl

I'll admit to trying it once a few years back when first exploring.

I think your money would be better spent on one of the many excellent yeasts from Lallemand, Lafort, White Labs, Wyeast, etc. Their web sites have much information about how of properly rehydrate yeast, create a starter, all that stuff.

Just because there's some kind of claim to produce 18% abv from the ferment doesn't mean anything. There's a lot more to the mashing and fermentation that getting the maximum ABV you can if you are making anything other than vodka.

Hi. Sorry but you cannot run a distillery from your home.

For the regs (regulations) you can find them at http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/spirits-regs.shtml

You'll want to pay particular attention to 27 CFR Part 19 Distilled Spirits Plants.

Subpart F, says you can't operate in a dwelling.

Over here at the TTB, is the application packet. There's all sorts of documents to download, and looking them over will give you an idea of the kinds of information you'll need to provide TTB. I read somewhere that someone thought it was like joining the CIA. The front page of my original website said "Distilleries only crazy people start". I think that's really true.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try and start a microdistillery where you live, only that you need to understand what you might be getting into. You're basically starting a business, one that is heavily regulated. Maybe any business is difficult to start, but distillery seems more fraught than others.

Good luck.

Wouldn't be surprised if there's some extra steam available at a nuclear power plant.

The CFR says

Distilled spirits plants shall not be located in any dwelling house, or in any shed, yard, or enclosure connected with any dwelling house,

If you have a solid building as described by the other CFRs on the same property as the house, that is legal. The above only says it can't be in a shed, you can't locate it in the yard i.e., no outdoor distilling, and the enclosure can't be connected with the house.

Many distilleries, post Prohibition, had residences on the property. Often the master distiller lived there. Perhaps on the official DSP docs on the plant didn't include the house, thereby making it non-bonded premises. The regs above are designed to describe typical moonshining operations, and prevent such operations from becoming DSPs.

Remember, the TTB officials are people too. They are doing their best to interpret the regs based on their given experience. They aren't always correct.

A solar heated still probably wouldn't work for practical reasons.

here's some solar info.

http://www.solarbuzz.com/Consumer/FastFacts.htm

For a system to generate 1 KwH electricity the site offers $9000 as a price. Maybe you could find cheaper, but assume ballpark. So that's about 3400 BTU/hr. There's propane burners that work better than that for a whole lot less money. Even the electric company is cheaper by lots.

A beer barrel is 117 liters or 31 gallons. The original poster may be coming from a brewing background where bbl is used as a measure of brewery size, and 1 bbl would be very small.

Such a distillery would still be small, but as Chuck says, not nano.

I know my views are commonly accepted as contrary to the accepted wisdom, but if your bottles are for your own internal R&D use, you should use whatever is useful and you can get at an appropriate price, shipping included.

afaik, a lot of small producers simply use a 4 oz boston round. Your potential customer gets a reasonable size to sample your product a couple or three times. They may even have a knowledgeable customer that often buys that class of spirit.

Congrats!