Falling Rock

Well shoot...make a guess...it's a race!

31 state could refer to California...bensonmarketing.com

http://www.state31.com/

Alex...you're o.k. with the Feds, but you'd better look at your own state laws.

I agree he is talking TTB, but there will be some local involved at some point.

Wow...http://www.honolulu.gov/liq/licensingpermits.html

Slightly dif take...They would only care if the owner of the building had an ownership in both the distillery and another liquor license. But it wouldn't matter who owned the building, just the liquor permits. And it doesn't matter if they are in the same building or different buildings.

You can not have ownership in a distillery and a retail liquor permit. Most States also have statutes against this. Some States even go further. If my name is on a distillery permit, my immediate family can not hold a retail liquor permit. Doesn't matter if they are in the same building or not.

The knee wall also allows for the quickest dilution of a liquid spill.

Welcome...

Where do you get your grape ferment/wine? Are you buying wine or doing your own?

An over head vent hood might drag fumes/vapors off the floor. But the best setups I have seen are drawing air off the floor behind a knee wall.

I have been there when 95% run across the top of the gas fired still (leak in column), pooled, and went poof! Not an explosion, just a poof.

I was sitting beside it! I heard it, but couldn't see the flame and it took me about 10 seconds to figure it out. I cut gas and diluted the flaming pool with water.

Basically a none event, because-

1. I was there.

2. I had a plan if something happened.

3. I kept my head.

4. The flame under the pot lit the ethanol while the amount was small, rather than vapor filling the room.

I think good ventilation and the open flame contributed to a none event. In an electric direct fired still, the leak could have filled the room with vapor until something else ignited it.

Slightly off top0ic...Regarding Looses

I've reused small barrels with split and "bee's waxed" the split. Got me thinking...

Then I tried coconut oil on the staves of a new barrel, not the heads, and cut looses.

Call me a hieratic, but I found no undesirable effects from the oil.

Experience using other woods or getting them label approved?

I've used cherry with great success...sweeter and milder than oak while giving a redder darker color. I love it!

The state will take a shot at it also...some states harder than others.

I like dhdunbar's reply.

To get at the same...why would a distillery go PPM?

A. Because they can't get a loan from a normal bank or a trusted angel.

Why would an investor fund by PPM?

A. Because they are going to get a better / higher return than from a bank,because it's a risky investment.

From the ADI website...

Q: Can a distillery be in the same building that may have some residential units? Not an apartment complex but in a multi-floor mixed used building that may have some loft apartments?
A: This is very tricky and is the source of much debate. Here is the exact regulation: “Subpart F – Location and Use (of distilleries) § 19.131 Restrictions as to locations. Distilled spirits plants shall not be located in any dwelling house, or in any shed, yard, or enclosure connected with any dwelling house, or on board any vessel or boat, or on premises where beer or wine is produced, or liquors of any description are retailed, or (except as provided in §19.133) on premises where any other business is conducted.”

In my personal interpretation, if the distillery is physically connected to one of the loft apartments, it may not be approved. You may also run into local or county fire or zoning regulations that may prohibit the distillery in the building. I highly encourage you to reach out to the TTB directly to have a conversation about the specifics of your potential distillery space before you submit your DSP Application and wait the 120 days for review only to get rejected. Here is some relevant ADI Forum Discussion on the subject.

Ask me Anything About TTB Reporting

Important Disclaimer: The content above has been provided by Donald Snyder, Whiskey Resources LLC, and Whiskey Systems Online and are not affiliated with the TTB and answers posted are only from personal experience and personal understanding of the Federal Regulations. Individual distilleries and owners are ultimately responsible for ensuring all actions taken are compliant and follow TTB and other Federal Regulations. Advice and links posted on this site should be used at your own discretion. Donald Snyder, Whiskey Resources LLC, and Whiskey Systems Online will not be held liable for any damages resulting from advice, responses, or answers posted on this page.

I know of multiple locations where the rules above are being "bent."

Lots of Distilleries retail, I know a Micro Brewery with a DSP and retail, I know a Micro Brewery with a DSP that got the Permit in a Fed Historic Hotel.

But as others have said, the local authorities may eat you up! The historic hotel, micro brewery, DSP has not been allowed to produce/co-locate by the city they are in.

On the surface it is a way to sell stock to only a select group. You are buying money from a private person, not a bank. Investors have to be QUALIFIED, as having a net worth over one million usd.

With an Initial Public Offering anyone and everyone who wants to buy, must be accommodated. SEC regulations will be more stringent for IPO.

With the PPM, you select who you offer to and no one else. Number of investors is also limited...I can't remember how many. You also get relief from ALL SEC Regulations. With a PPM you don't have to prove your companies solvency to the Department of Treasury. You do not have to report profit or lose to the SEC. The SEC will not get involved in a dispute.

I would assume that for $20,000 the lawyers are writing the document (there are boiler plates), finding investors and managing the term to payoff. Some lawyers would do this for a percentage...if the amount raised were big enough they might do it for 1-2% a year.

Again, I would not sell them part of the "distillery". Sell the ownership of the company that owns the distillery equipment.

I have been to Glass Distillery in Seattle. The product is wonderful and the distillery is a showcase.

He is getting a phenomenal price for a great product.

HA...good one. I like your website also. I'm in Mobile, AL for now and hope to get your way soon.

I love the flavor/notes of distilled rice. But without an indirect fired still I cuss the process!

Standing by...cool announcement...

Well I said from my head and was off

From TTB Pub 86-4

1. Number of Liters of Absolute Alcohol at 20 °C X 0.52589 = Number of U.S. Proof Gallons

350 x .52589= 184 pg

1466 x .126 =184.7 pg

So their mash is at least 12.6% and assuming they don't get every drop out of it maybe more like 14%. I don't see industrial distiller waiting that long for a ferment. The last few percent would double the time.

Making some assumptions, estimates and doing it in my head closely match yours...56 lbs of rye at ~1.5 pounds per gallon mash equals ~37 gallons of mash, at 8% equals 2.9 pg potential/no cuts.

2,200 lbs at 1.5 per gallon is 1,466 gallons on mash, again assuming 8% equals 117pg...117 pg to liters equals 442ltrs...

I think your tonne/lter/gallon conversion is off...

So assuming the 350ltrs from a metric tonne...350 proof liters is 92 pg so their mash is only yielding ~6.2%

For an industrial operation the 6.2% sounds closer to reality.

I see direct fire differently. I think direct fire stills are no more or less likely to start a FIRE than steam or electric, and are less likely to cause an EXPLOSION.

I don't see the need to seal boiler to the fire box. If distillate from a leak in the column ran down the side of the still and caught fire, it would be a safety feature compared to vapors filling the room before they found an ignition source. Distillate wouldn't run down the side of a hot boiler to reach the fire box.

Removing "other" fuel would be on my list. Concrete floor and dam/knee wall around the still to contain a distillate spill. Still should be separated by distance or fire blocked from the walls. Deluge fire suppression inside the knee wall. And a panic shutoff for the gas... Any or all of these features should ease the fire inspectors mind.

From another post...

There was a capital venture lecturer at ADI 2015 about just that subject...he had a very good alternative plan. Works just the opposite of the recent mess's.

While it wouldn't work with a SHARK, it weeds them out and makes for better, more honest, investors.

#1-

Never finance the distillery directly. Finance the debt of the company. Offer investors shares like a CD at 5%, to put up say $100,000. They own shares of the company's equipment, but never the Company! They get paid on a schedule or can forgo payment and have their number of shares increase as others get paid out. They have the safety of hardware as collateral.

They get better return than a bank is paying. They get to say they are part of a sexy distillery business. The distillery never loses control.

Under a more traditional buy in, every time the distillery expands, the founder's ownership is diluted, until he no longer has controlling interest.

While not exactly the same and on another note...my business does this for liability reasons, owns almost nothing and we have a leasing company that owns almost everything. So the biz is always in debt to the leasing company. Every bit of profit gets paid out! Every new expansion gets financed! Sue me out of business or hostile take over and you get...my debt. Now...investors need you!

#2-

HE WHO WRITES THE CONTRACT WINS!

You and your attorney write the contract and give it to the investors. That doesn't mean you write anything into it to screw them. But it does mean they can't write anything into it to screw you.

I have done rice with Koji, Chinese Yeast Balls (a mixture of Aspergillus oryzae and yeast) and with enzymes (Aspergillus niger) and yeast, EC-1118. You can even malt brown rice.

It all works. The traditional Koji takes a long time to ferment. The enzymes are the fastest. Either way it tastes great.

Look to the Saki forums for instructions.

Oh...it is a mess to separate mash for stilling! Hope you have a Ban Marie still...

I think I worry more about the city than the state. The feds and most states have been there and done it. There is an example to be followed. However, it will be a NEW endeavor for a lot of cities.

This is where your demeanor kicks in. Be easy and ready to bend or the city will break you financially. Water, sewage, fire, tax division,...