enzymes past best before date

[needmorstuff]

I've got some GA and AA in liquid form that were opened 15 months ago and kept in the fridge. They are now 12 months past their best before date.
They are llalemand.

Now I'd like to use them but i also dont want a 300L wheat mash to deal with if they don't work.

What do you guys/gals reckon are the chances they will still work if i dose a bit higher?

[Kindred Spirits]

I would say to try using them, but maybe have some fresh enzymes if they don't seem to be working. It will be pretty obvious if they don't work on that wheat.

[needmorstuff]

Yes, I had a moment of clarity, a common sense moment.  I'm going to do a small trial in advance before mashing in the 300L. If I don't get a good conversion or it stays porridge like I will get some fresh enzymes with a decent expiry date.

[Kindred Spirits]

That's definitely a smart idea, those enzymes aren't too expensive, but you really don't want to deal with a unconverted mash.

[needmorstuff]

Tried this out, 500gm of milled wheat (almost to flour( with 1.75 litres of water. Heated water to 90c, added wheat, stirred. It went thick and porridge like.

 

Adjusted ph to 5 with lactic acid

Temp at 75c

I had to add sixteen time the upper dosage of the high temp AA to get to this consistency.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7pXB2vRV1G29aSKL9

Does that still look to thick?

I'll try the GA when it has cooled.

[Kindred Spirits]

How long did you give the AA to work before adding more? Also did you add some into the batch for the Heat up portion? That usually helps. 

Also do you typically put the wheat into water that hot? I would recommend adding the wheat to no hotter than 45C with some of the AA and then bring it up to maybe 65C  or so, wheat doesn't have to be brought up to 90C.  Then you should be close to where you want to be, maybe add another dose of the AA after a few minutes at 60C if you are still too thick.

[needmorstuff]

this AA works pretty instantly.. i could see with each extra dose it got a little thinner. I didnt really wait between.

It's a new process i am getting to grips with, but yes - I have been adding wheat to hot water. Good advice on heat.. I'll try work that into my process. It's easy enough to mix out dough balls in a pot with 2 litres, not so easy in a 300L tank.

Did you view my video? does that consistency seem ok?

I am planning on using a brew bag as I'm limited on equipment and need to capture the spent wheat to dispose of it. Also my pump cant move solids.

I have a HLT with internal elements, so was going to heat the water to 90c in their, pump water to another tank with the brew bag, add wheat into brew bag add enzymes etc, then after conversion - hoist bag, discard wheat, add yeast and ferment - pump to still and strip.

I could heat half water to 50c, pump to another tank with the brew bag, add wheat into brew bag add enzymes etc, mix, add other half of water at say 70c to get a mash temp around 60c, add rest of enzymes - hoist bag, discard wheat, add yeast and ferment - pump to still and strip.

I could alternatively get a mash pump with a flexible impeller, mix water and wheat at mains water temp, heat to 45c add enzymes, heat to 65c, pump to tank with brew bag, convert, hoist bag and ferment - pump to still and strip.

I have done a 200L trial adding wheat to hot water and from memory it's a pain so if it's far easier mixing cold then this may be the way to go. 

 

 

[Kindred Spirits]

34 minutes ago, needmorstuff said:

this AA works pretty instantly.. i could see with each extra dose it got a little thinner. I didnt really wait between.

            I would give it a bit of time, maybe a minute or two.

It's a new process i am getting to grips with, but yes - I have been adding wheat to hot water. Good advice on heat.. I'll try work that into my process. It's easy enough to mix out dough balls in a pot with 2 litres, not so easy in a 300L tank.

Did you view my video? does that consistency seem ok?

            Consistency looks workable for sure

I am planning on using a brew bag as I'm limited on equipment and need to capture the spent wheat to dispose of it. Also my pump cant move solids.

            A brew bag will be very hard to manage in larger batches

I have a HLT with internal elements, so was going to heat the water to 90c in their, pump water to another tank with the brew bag, add wheat into brew bag add enzymes etc, then after conversion - hoist bag, discard wheat, add yeast and ferment - pump to still and strip.

I could heat half water to 50c, pump to another tank with the brew bag, add wheat into brew bag add enzymes etc, mix, add other half of water at say 70c to get a mash temp around 60c, add rest of enzymes - hoist bag, discard wheat, add yeast and ferment - pump to still and strip. 

           Seems like a lot of work, do you have the ability to distill "on the grain"?

I could alternatively get a mash pump with a flexible impeller, mix water and wheat at mains water temp, heat to 45c add enzymes, heat to 65c, pump to tank with brew bag, convert, hoist bag and ferment - pump to still and strip.

I have done a 200L trial adding wheat to hot water and from memory it's a pain so if it's far easier mixing cold then this may be the way to go. 

           Typically a lower temp addition of grains prevents the formation of the dreaded doughballs forming.

 

See answers above. Do you have the ability to distill a grain in mash? If so that would simplify your process greatly.

[needmorstuff]

i can distill a grain in mash, I have a 300l still indirectly heated with an agitator, but then how do i handle cleaning of 100KG of wheat flour in the still after i distill it if i cant dump wheat sludge/solids to drain?

I have a manual forklift for hoisting brewbags and have a food waste bin i can use

my whole process is based around the removal of waste...

[Kindred Spirits]

Maybe send me a PM and we can chat about different ways you can make your process a bit more efficient and easier on you.

[needmorstuff]

So I mashed in twice this week. Here's my protocol..

moved 75 litres of 45c water into a vessel

added 50kg wheat (ground to almost flour)

mixed it all up quite easily

added 100 litres of water at 95c

overall temp dropped to 75c

adjusted ph from 6.5 to 5.5 using 50ml of lactic acid

added 350ml each of Murphs and sons trizyme and glucanase

left overnight to cool

in the morning it had a baby sick smell

 

I presume an infection, and hoped that pitching yeast would kill it off

 

rehydrated 70gm of llalemand distillamax HT in 700ml of water

pitched yeast - but stupidly temp was at 40c! and tolerance of yeast is 37c.  

sg was 1066 (well it was 1060 but temp was 40c)

 

two days in and gravity is 1060 @ 27c and there seems very little activity, my ph strips only go down to 3.5 and thats what they read..

I'm assuming it's too acidic for the yeast so tried to raise PH with little success.

I've added 12 tablespoons of calcium cabonate so far (4 at a time) that i mix first on very hot water. It doesnt move PH at all.. 

I'm going to repitch yeast to see if it takes this time.

 

Not a good start.

[kleclerc77]

You don't need to cook wheat to 75C. 65C-70C is closer to the gel temp for wheat. You also need to actively cool it to yeast pitch temp as quickly as possible. I would personally shoot for ~27C. Leaving it overnight to cool before pitching yeast is a recipe for an infection that the yeast will have no chance of competing against.

[needmorstuff]

3 minutes ago, kleclerc77 said:

You don't need to cook wheat to 75C. 65C-70C is closer to the gel temp for wheat. You also need to actively cool it to yeast pitch temp as quickly as possible. I would personally shoot for ~27C. Leaving it overnight to cool before pitching yeast is a recipe for an infection that the yeast will have no chance of competing against.

this is what I am coming to understand.. I need to start the mash in the morning, actively cool, then pitch. I was just too busy that day.. need to focus on one task.

Do we think this is dead then and needs ditching?

Also - what about PH.. just leave it at 6.5 as adjusting it down and it then crashing to 3.5 (or lower) seems like i might be making my life harder for no reason and leaving ph alone may be a better approach.