Proofing - Spring Water vs RO Water

[Cody-BGD]

I am in the final stages of construction on my distillery. (It has taken ages) Room is tight. I have discussed with my business partner the merits of putting in an RO system vs just buying bulk water. Also I have been to distilleries where they used Spring Water and some used RO Water for proofing.

So my question being is it better to use Spring water or RO water when proofing. Also how cost effective is it to outsource the water vs having an RO system?

Any advice for this beginner is appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[whiskeytango]

A lot depends on your water quality.   Where are you located.  Do you have any idea what the tap looks like?    

 

We used to buy in totes of RO and Spring water since they both have their place but we eventually  moved to a RO system of out own and it payed for itself pretty quickly.   

[Kindred Spirits]

It also depends on your batch sizes and RO water requirements.

If you aren't looking to put out too many cases to start, it might not make sense to drop $7K on a RO system and all the required pretreatments due to the fact it would take years to recoup that cost. 
But if you are looking to make a bunch of alcohol, then like @whiskeytango said, it would pay for itself pretty quickly. 

Have you gone over your production calcs with anyone?

[Cody-BGD]

5 hours ago, whiskeytango said:

A lot depends on your water quality.   Where are you located.  Do you have any idea what the tap looks like?    

 

We used to buy in totes of RO and Spring water since they both have their place but we eventually  moved to a RO system of out own and it payed for itself pretty quickly.   

I am located in Southeast New Mexico. Our water quality is pretty good. Kinda heavy on calcium, but I drink from the tap every day. We already have a water softener installed on location. I guess I don't know the pros and cons of using RO Water vs Spring Water. I don't think I would necessarily use tap, but I know some places do. Is it a flavor thing? Cloudiness? Dependent on type of alcohol? At this point I'm thinking of just proofing out a gallon with each type of water and see what I think. 

But If I can't use tap water to proof (which I am against because I don't think our city water is perfect) then getting an RO system vs buying bulk water might be more cost effective. But of course quality. I just don't know if there is a difference if any in flavor between the two.

[Cody-BGD]

2 hours ago, Kindred Spirits said:

It also depends on your batch sizes and RO water requirements.

If you aren't looking to put out too many cases to start, it might not make sense to drop $7K on a RO system and all the required pretreatments due to the fact it would take years to recoup that cost. 
But if you are looking to make a bunch of alcohol, then like @whiskeytango said, it would pay for itself pretty quickly. 

Have you gone over your production calcs with anyone?

I have not gone over production calcs. I will be using a 200 gallon still. We are in a high traffic area in our city and will be producing spirits for a cocktail lounge as well as a retail space. We of course expect to get into distribution soon as we have a handle on production output. Our state heavily incentivizes restaurants/bars to use state produced spirits through tax cuts and lower licensing fees. Being that we are the only distillery in our corner of the state I am hoping for a good turnout. But you know how these things go. You don't really know until you have been open for a bit.

[jocko]

We just have a small wall-mounted RO system. Probably a 5 gallons per hour.  That adds up pretty quickly.  The system was maybe $200.  We just let it run until a drum is full (or tote), then we have as much as needed for a given proofing. 

I will add that we also have a large carbon filter for all water that is used in production.  So, what is hitting the RO filter has already been carbon filtered prior to the RO system.  Strongly recommend a carbon filter for all water that touches production if it's city water.

[Cody-BGD]

I was looking at doing a smaller system like that as well. Seems more cost effective and space effective.

[whiskeytango]

On 7/25/2024 at 7:11 AM, jocko said:

We just have a small wall-mounted RO system. Probably a 5 gallons per hour.  That adds up pretty quickly.  The system was maybe $200.  We just let it run until a drum is full (or tote), then we have as much as needed for a given proofing. 

I will add that we also have a large carbon filter for all water that is used in production.  So, what is hitting the RO filter has already been carbon filtered prior to the RO system.  Strongly recommend a carbon filter for all water that touches production if it's city water.

Have you tested you water to see how much resolved solids are still in it?  I have seen the small units clog up real quick and then are much less effective. 

 

 

[jocko]

Yes.  Send the water off to Wards Lab for a DS test.  Pretty cheap. We are lucky in that our city water comes from snowmelt/reservoirs and is quite similar to the water in Pilsen. 

[Cody-BGD]

I appreciate it. I will definitely get the water tested before buying an RO system. I was going to get tap water tested for fermenting anyways. 

I think I'm still going to buy water at first. I'm more curious about the difference in taste and/or clarity between RO Water and say spring water. I can't seem to find a definitave answer if there is a difference or not.

[FIVE x 5 Consulting]

Reverse Osmosis treatment reduces (but does not eliminate) dissolved solids like calcium, magnesium, etc. Commonly referred to as 'hardness'.

At my house, I "enjoy" tap water with 300-350ppm TDS, one of the highest in the nation. My home R/O unit brings it down to 20-30ppm. This R/O water tastes a million times better than the high-TDS tap.

On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen an R/O unit on San Francisco Hetch Hetchy water, which came out of the tap at 2ppm. R/O knocks it down to 0ppm. I did not notice a taste difference.

"Spring Water" just means water that came out of the ground. The mineral profile and TDS level of spring water varies substantially. That's why some tastes better than others.  You can't make a definitive statement about R/O Water tasting better than Spring Water - it depends. That said, Spring Water often DOES taste better than R/O.  If I were searching for objections, R/O can taste flabby, flat, 'like nothing'. Although in the case of my home system, the 20-30ppm that remains seems to be "just right".  R/O that is totally without character may or may not be a good thing in the context of spirits proofing, you have to experiment to find out.  

Here's my advice:

* Start with your nose & palate. If the water smells or tastes bad, don't use it at any stage of your process.

* Carbon Filter your tap water for use in mash/cook/ferment stages. You've stated that you have a softener. I would probably avoid using softened water for mash/cook/ferment - just carbon filter it.

* Take your softened water and run it through a small-scale RO system to obtain water that you can use for proofing down of spirits. The key here is that you need to achieve a fairly low TDS, otherwise the solids will precipitate out and look like dandruff in the bottom of your bottles (this process takes time, days/weeks/months, so you should keep an eye on any bottles proofed with higher-TDS water...). Spring Water may or may not have high enough TDS to cause this precipitate!  

Your softener will protect the R/O membrane, preventing it from fouling prematurely. Mainly because I've had good after-sales support, I would probably push you towards this iSpring unit: https://www.amazon.com/iSpring-RCB3P-Commercial-Reverse-Oversized/dp/B007K1FDJA/ref=asc_df_B007K1FDJA/ (tankless - less maintenance/chance for spoilage). The downside is (like jocko mentioned) - production can be a bit slow, so you have to collect your water ahead of time / plan ahead.  R/O water that is sitting in a tote or bucket or drum can go bad pretty quickly (a matter of days) so you don't want to be hoarding it - produce to order, more or less.

It's wise to spend some time learning how R/O systems work and how to maintain (sanitize, filter swap) them. No need to hire pros, they are straightforward. Get a TDS meter if you don't have one already.

[Cody-BGD]

I greatly appreciate your input. You answered all of my questions and then some. I will definitely look at the ispring unit.

Again thank you. It can be a little daunting starting up and you always want things to go as smoothly as possible.

[Kindred Spirits]

300 GPD is a little slow for most distilleries looking to make any sort of production happen.

Just to give you an idea, a 300 GPD system puts out around .2 gallons per minute. If you need to add 50 gallons of water to a batch for final proofing that would be 250 minutes of runtime, just over 4 hours.

Now I know you can set it up and let it run into a tank while doing other things, but RO water doesn't do well if left in a tank for a few days, especially if you are in a hot/humid client as all of the additives that protect it from growth have been removed.

If you ever wanted to do larger batches, for instance a 350+ gallon batch for consistency, now you would be talking about 120+ gallons of water and you have leave and come back or split it over two days.
All the clients I have who have started with a 500GPD or smaller RO system are not thrilled with the amount of time it takes. 

On 7/26/2024 at 1:44 PM, whiskeytango said:

Have you tested you water to see how much resolved solids are still in it?  I have seen the small units clog up real quick and then are much less effective. 

 

 

And I can't agree with @whiskeytango more. The smaller units are fine for your house where they don't have significant demand. An active commercial distillery will put a serious load on the RO, and without proper pretreatment, they will get clogged up and run even slower and less efficiently.

All of that said, if all you have in your budget is funds for the smaller unit, do what is best for you, I would definitely oversize the feed to it though to be prepared for an upgrade in the future after you have recouped some of your expenses.

[FIVE x 5 Consulting]

I've used that 300GPD system on some pretty nasty source water and the production rate was substantially higher than 0.2 GPM, but I'm not going to claim you'll get any particular rate, since it depends on many factors including source water pressure, source water temperature, solids loading, state of membrane, etc.

I've also hooked that system up to larger pressure tanks to have 25-50 gallons of water on standby, that's a nice middle ground that wont break the bank. https://www.amazon.com/iSpring-T40M-Pre-Pressurized-Reverse-Osmosis/dp/B06WWFFSX6/

Keep in mind nominal vs actuals when dealing with RO.  300 GPD production figure is based on unattainable source water characteristics (i.e. high pressure, 77F temp, low solids, clean membrane).  Cutting that in half or 1/3 will give you a more realistic figure.

Same with pressure tanks. Due to the bladder inside them, a nominal 40gal tank will give you 20-25gal of actual water storage, depending on pressure.

It really just depends on your needs. This system (and ones like it) have worked for clients that are small to medium, but will definitely be inadequate if you're making serious quantities.

How much proofing down will you be doing at a time:

* What is your batch size that you'll be proofing down?   

* Are you proofing down GNS from 190 to 80, or proofing down whiskey from 116 to 96?  These are vastly different in terms of water needs. 

* Build for the future or meet current needs?

Answers to these questions will drive you to the right RO solution.