Rye sticking to Steam Jacket

[Wildfether]

We have been doing rye for the past month and having issues with our still heating up.  We thought it was a steam issue and had that all checked out and it was fine.

We take out the grain before fermentation so there is no grain in the still.  Our run times are taking 3-4x the normal run time on our stripping still and every time we finish a run and drain the still there is something caked onto only where the steam jackets are.  It's either proteins, small pieces of grain that get through, or the beta glucans.  I don't know what.  It only comes off with a pressure washer though.

I am sure that this caked on matter is happening around 140-160 degrees because that's when the still starts to crawl along.  Our mash bill is 80% unmalted rye. I am also 100% sure this is what is causing my still to not heat up at all.  It doesn't seem to add a flavor difference to the finished product so its not scorched but I can't live like this!

We made Rye in the past and it's always been annoying but we never had this issue.  However we have a smaller still that's 150 gallons and it was fine on that.  We since added a 400 gallon stripping still and that's the still that this is happening on.  We also tried a grain in rye and had the same exact issue.

This time I loaded the still with the agitator on as high as possible the entire time and it still happened.  The only other changes I can think of are a much slower heat up time and maybe a beta glucan rest?  We have never needed that in the past.  We use alpha and gluco but maybe a different enzyme?

I know there are a ton of distilleries that make all rye whiskeys so there has to be a solution to this.  This latest batch also wanted to clog up our centrifuge so it seems this batch is extra sticky for some reason.  

Curious if anyone else has dealt with this issue.

[jeffw]

Are you using enzymes to deal with your beta glucans?  That would be the most common problem with rye.

[Wildfether]

1 hour ago, jeffw said:

Are you using enzymes to deal with your beta glucans?  That would be the most common problem with rye.

Use Alpha when mashing and gluco for fermentation.  Same mashing procedure when we didn't have the issue on the smaller still.  Never have used beta glucanese 

[Kindred Spirits]

What is the final gravity of your mash?
What is your mash process? You might be generating a lot of long chain dextrins that are not getting converted into alcohol. That would explain why you are experiencing your issue.

[Wildfether]

4 hours ago, Kindred Spirits said:

What is the final gravity of your mash?
What is your mash process? You might be generating a lot of long chain dextrins that are not getting converted into alcohol. That would explain why you are experiencing your issue.

Heat to 150 degrees. Add Alpha first and then Rye on the way up.

Hold at 150 for 45 minutes.  

Cool to 145

Add Malted Barley 

Hold for 30 minutes

Cool to 100, separate out the grain.

Move to fermenter where it cools to 80, pitch yeast and gluco

SG 1.071, FG 1.004

Seems pretty dry.  Our other mash bills hit 1.00 or lower but rye has always stayed just a hair higher for us.

[Wildfether]

The particles seem to be really small pieces of grain that make it through 100 mess, wonder if its a still design issue.

[Kindred Spirits]

So the one recommendation I would make to that is potentially adding the rye first, and then the Alpha. Most enzyme manufacturers recommend adding enzymes when grains are in vs just into water. 

Are you adding anything to help liquify the mash like Beta-Glucanase? Sometimes the "gummy" character of the rye causes issues. 
Also just a question about the grain removal, is there a reason why you aren't distilling on the grain? I imagine lautering that must be a nightmare.

Its strange that you are running into an issue like this with the FG dropping all the way down, so its likely not sugars. 
If I had to guess, it would imagine its the beta-glucans that are causing your issue. Next batch try adding some Beta-glucanase and see if that clears things up.

[Wildfether]

6 hours ago, Kindred Spirits said:

So the one recommendation I would make to that is potentially adding the rye first, and then the Alpha. Most enzyme manufacturers recommend adding enzymes when grains are in vs just into water. 

Are you adding anything to help liquify the mash like Beta-Glucanase? Sometimes the "gummy" character of the rye causes issues. 
Also just a question about the grain removal, is there a reason why you aren't distilling on the grain? I imagine lautering that must be a nightmare.

Its strange that you are running into an issue like this with the FG dropping all the way down, so its likely not sugars. 
If I had to guess, it would imagine its the beta-glucans that are causing your issue. Next batch try adding some Beta-glucanase and see if that clears things up.

Thanks man I will try beta-glucanese next go around.  Interesting on the Alpha, I struggle to see what it would make a difference, can you explain that to me?

Looking to make my own style whiskey and knowing we have pretty small production space because we prioritized an 120 seat tasting room in an 1850s house.  Removing the grain prefermentation saves us space in the fermenters and stripping still.  The yield is a little better on the grain (we have done a few barrels) but really loving the whiskey we are producing without the grain in.  Honestly the process is so nice too when we get the grain out after mashing.

We don't lauter, we use a centri-sifter.  The thing rips through corn, wheat, and malted barley and gives us really dry grain.  I would say we're around 5-7% loss in liquid.  Rye is the only pain in the ass and the loss is probably double.  Maybe the beta-glucanese can kill two birds with one stone and help with the still and the separating.  I am going to try that next Rye cycle. Honestly if that doesn't work, Rye may be more of a specialty offering for us just because it doesn't seem to love our process.  I would love to give it another stab or two before deciding on that though.

 

[Kindred Spirits]

11 hours ago, Wildfether said:

Thanks man I will try beta-glucanese next go around.  Interesting on the Alpha, I struggle to see what it would make a difference, can you explain that to me?

Looking to make my own style whiskey and knowing we have pretty small production space because we prioritized an 120 seat tasting room in an 1850s house.  Removing the grain prefermentation saves us space in the fermenters and stripping still.  The yield is a little better on the grain (we have done a few barrels) but really loving the whiskey we are producing without the grain in.  Honestly the process is so nice too when we get the grain out after mashing.

We don't lauter, we use a centri-sifter.  The thing rips through corn, wheat, and malted barley and gives us really dry grain.  I would say we're around 5-7% loss in liquid.  Rye is the only pain in the ass and the loss is probably double.  Maybe the beta-glucanese can kill two birds with one stone and help with the still and the separating.  I am going to try that next Rye cycle. Honestly if that doesn't work, Rye may be more of a specialty offering for us just because it doesn't seem to love our process.  I would love to give it another stab or two before deciding on that though.

 

In terms of why, that is a good question. I would have to ask some of the enzyme reps I deal with to get a good answer on that one. 

But otherwise sounds like a really cool process, and having the option to pull the liquid out at any stage is really nice too. 
Hopefully you can iron out the issues on the rye, keep us posted.

[Wildfether]

On 9/28/2024 at 8:16 AM, Kindred Spirits said:

In terms of why, that is a good question. I would have to ask some of the enzyme reps I deal with to get a good answer on that one. 

But otherwise sounds like a really cool process, and having the option to pull the liquid out at any stage is really nice too. 
Hopefully you can iron out the issues on the rye, keep us posted.

Thanks for the heads up on the enzymes.  It IS making a difference with the alpha.  Less clumping when putting the grains in seems to be the biggest benefit to me.  Seems counter intuitive but it worked.

[Kindred Spirits]

12 hours ago, Wildfether said:

Thanks for the heads up on the enzymes.  It IS making a difference with the alpha.  Less clumping when putting the grains in seems to be the biggest benefit to me.  Seems counter intuitive but it worked.

Glad to hear it! Its strange how that works. One would think it would be more effective to put it into the water to get it more evenly dispersed.
Hopefully the beta-glucanase helps with the thickness and separation too.