Noob enzyme question.

[adamOVD]

I'm doing a whiskey with mostly wheat and a little bit of specialty malt. I did few small test batches and I just mashed in with really hot water, the mash temp ended up about 165F. I adjusted the PH and added some hitempase to try to keep things liquid. I let it cool to 150F, adjusted temp again and pitched Amylo 300, then held the temp for conversion. Grain was milled to a flour. I did not use a high glucan enzyme, mostly because I didn't have any easily available.

I have a couple questions.

1) Is it a waste to use the hitempase as I'm not cooking the grains?

2) If did use a high glucan enzyme like bioglucanase would it also be a waste and just be denatured since I'm mashing in so hot?

3) Will I convert more sugars and get a better yield using bioglucanse?

I everything stayed pretty liquid and fermented fine with the small batches, but I am about to do a full production run. Thanks so much.

[delta H]

In a past life I was a protein chemist at a big enzyme manufacturer - specifically high-temp engineering of carbohydrate hydrolases.

 

Key point about "high temperature" enzymes is that thermoactivity (optimal catalytic temperature) is not the same thing as thermostability - also note that both are impacted by small changes in pH.  And the will depend on the specific enzyme (and expression host) you are using in various products, and that gets technical quickly.  

 

That said, roughly:

1) Probably not. and 165 f is enough to gel the starch in most grains (not all, though).

2) Do a multistep mash, use it at a permissive temp for the glucanase.

3) Yes, but how much more is highly dependent on mash and fermentation conditions. So is it worth it is the question, really.

 

[adamOVD]

Thanks for the input @delta H. I need to put in an order with BSG, and I was trying to decide if I needed to buy glucanase or not. Guess I need to do a trial batch with and without to see if/ how much the yield improves. I'll do two batches, one as described above, and then another with glucanase pitched at 140F, then raised to 152ish F for converting to see what the difference in yields are.

[adamOVD]

6 hours ago, delta H said:

Key point about "high temperature" enzymes is that thermoactivity (optimal catalytic temperature) is not the same thing as thermostability

Are you saying that even if you pitch a high temp enzyme outside it's optimal temperature range it still functions to a certain degree?

 

6 hours ago, delta H said:

and 165 f is enough to gel the starch in most grains

And here are you saying a mash can still get pretty gummy at 165F?

Thanks again for your insights.

 

[delta H]

So thermostability means that the protein does not unfold (e.g., cooked egg whites don't uncook when cooled).  Generally speaking reactions happen faster at higher temp, but it if the fold gets slightly floppy the catalysis might not work as well.  Related, but not identical concepts.

 

And yeah, mash can still be gummy at high temps, but the gummy is the issue more than the beta glucans.  So if you can pump and ferment it with no issues, the tiny loss of sugar isn't always worth chasing.

 

[adamOVD]

@delta H Gotcha, Thanks for the dumbed down explanation.

[indyspirits]

13 hours ago, delta H said:

And yeah, mash can still be gummy at high temps,

Funny story... We normally pitch our HTAs at low temps and them let the heat up with the corn. Once we forgot and when the starch gelled (185ish ?)  you could actually hear the difference in the agitator.  Pitch our normal HTAs and within a few seconds it started to thin out. OK, we thought it was funny.  

 

[adamOVD]

Yeah I've read a few enzyme protocols where they say to add high temp enzymes at 190F, which seams like it would be too late at that point. Even more so after reading what @delta H had to say about thermostability

One more question, is it easier to keep the mash liquid by milling the grain coarser or finer? I fabricated a mill stand and hopper last week I think is pretty cool.

[indyspirits]

14 hours ago, adamOVD said:

One more question, is it easier to keep the mash liquid by milling the grain coarser or finer?

I find the entire process (gel / starch - > dextrines) is faster when the corn is ground finer. Never really noticed a difference regarding viscosity.  

[adamOVD]

Thanks indyspirits. Can't wait till i get things more figured out and don't have to stress out over every decision, and developing new products is more fun. 

[Florida Cracker]

On 1/27/2019 at 9:13 PM, adamOVD said:

Yeah I've read a few enzyme protocols where they say to add high temp enzymes at 190F, which seams like it would be too late at that point. Even more so after reading what @delta H had to say about thermostability

One more question, is it easier to keep the mash liquid by milling the grain coarser or finer? I fabricated a mill stand and hopper last week I think is pretty cool.

Hey Adam, how about some info on your mill? Looking sharp!

[adamOVD]

@Florida Cracker. It's just a cheap burr grinder off ebay. Supposed to be for coffee. Mills super slow. Will see how how long the motor lasts. But it can mill wheat and barley and to almost a flour in a single pass, and is way cheaper than a roller or hammer mill. Mills about 100#s an hour. My custom stand works bitchin though.