Foreshot

I've never heard of Acid Beverage Flocculation before. Thanks, that's something new to add to the list of troubleshooting items. And thanks for the links, those are great reads.

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the chemical composition of sugar may contain numerous compounds that promote the formation of acid beverage flocs (ABF)

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identification of compounds, such as p-hydroxybenzaldehyde, vanillin, triacontanoic acid, hexadecanoic acid, octadecanoic acid and n-octacosanoic acid, in the ABF composition. These compounds are widely found in vegetable tissues, confirming that the ABF are formed by tiny particles of plant cells of sugar cane

So if maybe if you do a sanitary filtration (.5m or less) after adding sugar/right before bottling would reduce/eliminate the ABF?

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/ycg6ddyEMu/

Good read there on colloidal haze. No idea if that's your problem but it could be a contributing factor.

I filter down to .5 microns and still get that stuff though it takes way longer. It's possibly terpenes (essential oils) or esters (fatty acids). Michael at TCW has haze filters that might help. You could chill filter but that can be expensive and you will loose flavor. To test if it is terpenes/esters put it in the freezer. It will coagulate in a few hours. I don't believe the issue is sugar related but that part I don't have as much experience.

Yeah it sucks. We're stuck using a different bottle for some of our products until we can get the old ones back - which were told it might be 3-4 more months. Lucky they don't look horrible just not great.

if you have a small space it's easy. I created a layout using excel. Made the cells square, using one square as 1'. Labeled the areas & entry/exits/windows. Exported it as a PDF. Done. The TTB doesn't seem to need exact details, just general layout. My state (PA) was a pain. They wanted exact feet/inches and doors etc and businesses around it.

To follow up we found these: https://www.dudadiesel.com/filters.php

They're stackable so we got a 5 pack from 200 micron down to 10. Because they are not pressurized it's going to be slow going. Given our minimal needs it should be good for now.

Once we get a little more cash we're going to buy something more substantial.

And thanks to everyone that replied and PM'ed. We appreciate the help.

Also the fermenting worksheets we use.

Fermentation Log.ods Fermentation Log.pdf

This is a simple form we use when we start proofing things down. We use Hoochware for the calcs. It also records data but we prefer to keep a paper record with the tank.

Blending worksheet.ods

Looking at add on products like mixers. Do any of you make/sell them? Do you need to do any other registrations/recording to make them? I've been doing some research into shelf life with pH and Water Activity. It's fairly confusing being new to it. Just would like to talk to someone that's doing it so I can understand requirements and processes.

How big are you looking? These are new but a smaller one might be good for display:

https://www.copper-alembic.com/en/

http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/

Also might be dependent on style. I know Still Dragon or ADE has more modern ones that are single wall that would be less expensive than you might expect. 

11 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

What size is your plate/frame?  Full size 40x40, or one of the 1/4 size smaller jobs (20x20)?

Smaller one - 20x20

11 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

 If you can get it to 1 micron, get it there, then filter again with half micron.  

We can get it to 1 micron easily enough. It's going from 1 to .5 that's the issue.

12 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Which raises another question, are you monitoring pressure on the filter input?

We have a gauge on the Input. It hits 30+ PSI (max gauge reading) within a minute.

2 hours ago, MichaelAtTCW said:

The cheapest option is going to be around $1400 for the Hobby Plate & Frame Filter, though

Yeah, I think that's the thing we need but we haven't brought ourselves to getting over the price for the moment. It's for only 1 product right now so it's hard to justify.

Interesting idea but I don't have the capability of cooling that much. I have put samples in the fridge and it floc'ed/separated much better. For centrifuges I looked into that but all I can find in my price range is aluminum. I don't think that's a good material for acidic spirits. I do think that it would be good for clarifying spirits as there is no filter to throw out.

It doesn't floc well. We tried pectin enzyme with little help either. The top 3rd is ok but the rest is still a mix.

I give up trying to figure this out on my own. We make limoncello. It's awesome to drink, a nightmare to make. Unlike other limoncellos we use juice in it. This puts TONS of particulate matter in the spirit. We filter ours to clarity (.5 microns). For our normal small batch we can do that, but it's a pain. We've increased our batch size (10g->40g) and now it's way too hard to deal with. We can filter down to 1 micron without much issue. It's going from 1 to .5 that is causing issues. We're using a 3 plate filter for that. The filters last around 5 gallons before getting clogged. Anyone have a idea how to step up without spending thousands of dollars? We want an interim solution before we invest at that level. If we could filter 40-50 gallons to .5 for less than $500 + filters that would be ideal.

He probably went with Forsyths: https://forsyths.com/distillation/pot-stills/

US Copper still makers:

Vendome: https://vendomecopper.com/

Cleveland Coppersmiths: https://www.clevelandcoppersmithing.com/

Confederate: (can't find a website other than facebook)

Colonel Vaughn: http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/

There's more but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head. Colonel Vaughn will probably be the least expensive. Vendome will be the most expensive.

23 hours ago, davdear said:

my town of 28,000 there are 6 liquor stores and just over the town line a liquor superstore. Most stores have 6 feet of whiskey, 6 feet of Tequila, etc. In other words plenty of choices!

In that small of a town it might be hard to achieve success. How large is your area? Is there a bigger town somewhat close? Is there a tourist element to your town?

For products? Go to the stores. Look at what they are selling & price points. That's what sells & the price it sells at. That doesn't mean isn't a market for something different & more expensive. Talk to the people in the store. They probably will be friendly if you tell them what you're doing. They may not. Ask them what people are into.

Once you figure out what sells - do you want to make it? If you do, do you know what make that product good? Does it need to be aged? If so what are you going to do while you're waiting?

For your estimates: Figure out your break even as Silk City said. Now how many bottles at your price point will it take to sell? Not everyone will buy a bottle when they come in, and some may buy more than 1. I would say for your estimates just do a simple 1:1. And let's just say you need to sell 500 bottles per month. Do you know how to get 500 people per month into your store? Have you ever done marketing or retail sales before? If your plan is to rely on Facebook & other social media have you done any work on marketing on social media?

What do you do if you don't sell that much month 1? 2? 6, 7 or 8? How will you pay for everything during that time? What happens when you get close to or run out of money? Asking for a loan or investors at that point is hard. Undercapitialization again as Silk said.

Can you open a bar or restaurant? If you can then you can increase you chance of success, but it will take even more capital. And if you've never run a bar/restaurant before you should find someone that can do that. As the saying goes - hire to your weaknesses.

Or are you going to rely on retail bottle sales and distribution only? That's going to be a really tough road. You'll need to figure out how to do that within your state.

Have to spoken to any distillers in your state/area? That would be a good start.

How much will you sell? While not specific to your state, you can start here: https://www.parkstreet.com/alcoholic-beverage-market-overview/

You can also google "alcohol sales in us" and "alcohol sales in (my state)" to help.

Dave Dunbar did the paperwork for us. It went through pretty quickly. You have 60 days to move bondable materials & equipment to the new location. You will probably will need to deal with state issues. It's like redoing your initial license but it is faster, doesn't require the personal financial stuff, and there's generally no issues getting it approved.

If you're not making/selling it anymore deregister. Follow the instructions above for both the facility and the product.

BOOM DONE. Thanks! I would not have known to end the NDC thing. 

Anyone have any idea how to deregister their location? I can deregister the Food Facility but no idea on the OTC part. 

Thanks Dave! I appreciate it.

Nice that this is happening right before the deadline. There's no way we're going to figure this out by Thursday.

We're starting to grow. Our gin is doing really well. Now we're using 52g Speidel tanks for proofing. It works but we are going to need to produce larger amount in the next few months. I would like to upgrade to 100g + tanks. I know that the rules change at that size. So what are the rules on using them? Do they need capacities marked or do they need weighed? I see threads here about using load cells though I think this is above our budget at the moment. We don't have the space to have a forklift so moving tanks to the scale is a no go.

Thanks! I appreciate that. Have you (or anyone else) had them give you trouble for how much you've done? We're new so we're doing 10 pg or so a month, and probably will continue on that path for a while.

We've been doing a bunch of test batches for various things. For the things that aren't going to be sold how do we report them if we dump them? Most of the stuff is pretty small but we have a couple that are a few gallons in size. While I prefer not paying tax on them I would prefer more that the TTB doesn't fine us for doing something wrong during an audit.