Foreshot

What's the ABV? Once you hit mid-high 20's nothing should be able to grow. I believe that's one of the reasons most liqueurs are required to be 30% or higher. Alcohol is a great stabilizer/preservative.   

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ttb-plans-to-issue-new-rules-alcohol-beverage-labels

The thing that stand the most out to me "using 0.50 ounce of ethyl alcohol as a standard drink"  So a proof ounce like measurement? That sounds like fun tying to calculate it. It's going to be even greater run trying to explain that to a customer. 

Both. For those of us that aren't veterans of a larger company it would be interesting to see what other people do. It would also help us be a little more professional in our processes. 

Does anyone have a standard tasting protocol? If so would you be willing to share it?

I ask because I was talking to a well known local sales rep and he had an tasting protocol that I had never heard of but now I am curious. He tasting our gin and liked it. He then did a 50/50 mix with tap water and said it didn't have enough flavor. He said it was to approximate it being diluted in a mixed drink. It stuck with me that we should have a more rigorous testing protocol especially for new products other than simply tasting it in a few things. 

What do you all think? What would you do to setup a protocol? 

Christian

No. A local company did what you describing. The TTB would not allow it to be called bourbon. For the TTB it had to be mashed/fermented/distilled together. By blending them after distillation you are creating a blend of whiskeys. They call it "Bourbon style" on the webpage but you won't see bourbon on the label. It's a great product, just not legally bourbon. 

https://www.bigspringspirits.com/shop/american-whiskey

We use a riptide. Not sure about hp but does good job. Dead quiet.  https://www.blichmannengineering.com/riptide-brewing-pump.html

Maybe look at a pool pump or something like that? Call a local pool company and see what they say. 

TL;DR version: There's no easy way, you need to build up a "feeling" about it. A big marketing budget helps. 

Yeah, welcome to wonderful world of distilled spirits where nothing is easy. There's a lot of spirits in our world that are meant to be unbalanced. We produce one that is bitter/astringent on purpose. It's meant to give the bartender a way of balancing out a sweet cocktail and add complexity. Straight up it's not great. One of my favorite local products is undrinkable neat. Throw it in a cocktail and like you said, wow. It's just part of the industry when you veer off of base spirits. 

We break products down into retail & wholesale. Retail products are for our tasting room and direct sales events. They must be balanced enough that consumers of all kinds can like the flavor. Wholesale products are directed more at bars and external retail. Those products are more for a specific purpose - mixers mostly. They are designed normally to have as little sweetness as possible. Bartenders can add simple but not take it away. That by itself make is so that home consumers won't be likely purchasers. 

We have a group of bartenders/beverage managers we trust to give us feedback for products like that. Sometimes though they like a product because it's odd, and not in a good way. Not great feedback but it happens. We generally look at what they think is a good plan of use - what cocktails they think it work in or if they can create some for the spirit. The wider variety of uses the more likely it's going to be a good seller. 

We're so small that we don't have a budget for external tasting. If we did we would. So far we're relied on competitions to give us feedback. It's not a great move but it's what we can do. 

Aka backhousia citriodora. I can't find a US place that sells it. I've email a few AU places with no response or outrageous shipping $ or time. 

I can find tons of Myrtle, but not Lemon Myrtle specifically. 

On 9/12/2022 at 10:31 PM, GBDistillers said:

@captnKB I will be emailing you soon, I'm planning to move my distillery 6 miles from my existing location. I'm purchasing a larger location but I want to use my existing location for storage.

If you're moving within ~10 miles you won't need a second DSP. You can maintain only 1 DSP with both locations. No need to set up TIBs. It's weird quirk in the rules. 

You should only get acetobacter if you have alcohol present. You'll probably have some in stillage but I would hope not much. Still - not necessarily a bad thing. Lots of documentation in the rum domain that's something they wanted for the vinegar. Not a ton but some. Vinegar will create ethyl acetate. Good for making a DOK style rum. 

I did a few Single Malt pits. Did a good job adding flavor. 

Please describe your process for proofing (one shot or slow proofing), from what ABV, what product it is (gin, rum, etc), does it have an abnormal flavor, what cleaning protocol/products do you use for the tank? That will help us figure it out. 

From the details you provided you might be getting phase separation of esters/fatty acids or saponification, but that's WAY more than I've ever seen. Anytime you go from above ~45% ABV to below that's always a possibility.  That's a lot of stuff so if you use PBW or another detergent maybe it did not get rinsed out properly? 

7 hours ago, jocko said:

Should the use of coloring, flavoring, or blending materials be allowed in the production of American single malt whisky? If so, what coloring, flavoring, or blending materials are “customarily employed” in the production of American single malt whisky, in accordance with 27 CFR 5.155? Please provide any available evidence of their use

A very strong NO. We need to make sure that --NO-- Coloring/Flavoring or blending materials are allow. This kind of crap is why Rum doesn't get respect. ASM should be the same as other whiskeys where it is not allowed. Being able to use adulterants and not being required to disclose them will not sit well with consumers. It will hurt the category in the long term and it will be hard to change/recover from it. I'm 100% for people doing what they want with their spirit but IT MUST BE DISCLOSED. Without the transparency consumers will not be able to trust the industry. 

7 hours ago, jocko said:

Noting that other whisky standards do not incorporate size restrictions for barrels, is a 700-liter limit for oak barrels for aging American single malt whisky necessary or appropriate? 

I'm a mild no on this but only as there is no standard for other whiskeys. 

7 hours ago, jocko said:

Is it appropriate that the new standard of identity allows the use of used, uncharred new, and charred new oak barrels?

Yes. DO NOT MAKE ME USE NEW OAK. 

7 hours ago, jocko said:

Should TTB amend its regulations to allow for the designation “straight” to be used with American Single Malt Whisky?

Yes. 

7 hours ago, jocko said:

Should TTB amend its regulations to allow for mixtures of American single malt whisky to be labeled as “blended American single malt whisky,” similar to how TTB regulations allow for blended Scotch whisky and blended Canadian whisky to be labeled, respectively, “blended Scotch whisky” and “blended Canadian whisky”?

Yes

Same here. They are fairly bad now. Tons of defects. We're aiming to move away from them. 

From a federal standpoint you probably can do this but it might take some legal gymnastics. You should investigate it on a state level first though. I know in PA this would not work. 

Anytime you go from above ~43% ABV to below that you can end up getting phase separation as oils/esters if present will separate out. Some of the Scots do it to as an alternative to chill filtering. 

For emulsifiers I don't know what would be best in spirits though Xantham Gum is a common one in the food industry.  

We use the juice of the lemons as well as as the zest. The juice has pectin in it. This helps clarify the spirit. I've never noticed the oil ring like that before in our so I'm assuming it's helping reduce the oils also. We plate filter with a .5 micron pad. 

Possibly saponification. Do you do one shot proofing or do you slow proof? One shot proofing will increase the likelihood of saponification.

Buy distilled water for your next batch and see if that helps. I'm a firm believer that proofing water should only be distilled or RO water. It helps keep the flavor of the spirit. Water used for fermenting is a different story.

So I would say use better water and slow proof - no more than 5 proof/day, with 1-2 proof better.

Can you tell us more about the spirit? Whiskey/Gin/Vodka? Production method - column, pot still? What kind of water did you use for proofing? The more details you can provide the better insight we can provide.

They are way behind right now. I submitted a change in late December and they just contacted me about it. So maybe 4-6 months?

Heat will destroy the precursors. From what I've read people bake them for a short period of time. I would suggest testing it and then sending it to a lab for verification. Alcohol does nothing to the compounds. There may be other/better ways for doing it but that's all I have read about.

On 4/12/2022 at 10:28 PM, Glenlyon said:

We've largely given up on bars and restaurants as we can't compete with the big brands, their rock bottom wholesale prices and the payola they use to keep their spirits in the 'well', as it were.

That's the key. Chasing bars is a race to the bottom. If you feel your product is good enough only target the higher end bars. And again, if you're not in the well you won't be selling many bottles. Being on the bar back is cool but doesn't equal many sales. You should focus on retail until your name gets out there more. When bars start coming to you then pick up the sales person again.

Win your street, win your neighborhood, win your city, win your region, win your state. The only way to skip that is tons of marketing $$$. Having a great product helps but it's not a magic bullet.

Couple things:

What price are you charging? Wholesale accounts are very price sensitive.

What type of products are you selling?

-- Are you selling whiskey (a very crowded market)? If so it's going to be tough to get significant traction.

-- Are you selling something they can add value to? Something like a mix or gin or something they can throw in a cocktail? If you have something interesting here I've found bars to more receptive.

-- Are you selling something that's more retail oriented like a cordial or something else with a lot of sugar in it? That decreases the likelihood that a bar will pick it up as it reduces their ability to add value to it in a cocktail.

Also from my limited experience in the wholesale arena, if you're not in the well you'll be lucky to sell a bottle a month to an account. We've been lucky so far that everything we've done so far has been pull based (they come to us). We have done very limited out selling and we don't have that much to show for it.

For me, in the craft world, retail is key. Way more profit, way less cost to sell. Instead of paying an out salesman focus on getting people in your retail shop (if you have one).

Photos? Can you describe your process a little bit? What's the ABV of the finished product? What size filter do you use?

https://www.paspiritsfest.com/

I believe that this is the largest local spirits fest in the nation. Right now we have 23 distilleries. It will be at Threadbare Cider (Wigle Whiskey's sister company) on Pittsburgh's Northside.

I'm posting this mostly as an FYI. Hopefully that this takes off in other areas also.

While not a class I found that using one of these helped me: https://shop-usa.enartis.com/laboratory-supplies/sensory-products/aroma-kits/distilled-beverage-aroma-recognition-kits