Paul G

Let me guess...thinking Bourbon can only come from Kentucky?

Just my own take on this...60K might be fine in comparison to wine/beer. Consider the manufacture of either and the net volume of alcohol being produced. Translating that into distilled spirits (and assuming a nice round 10% wash for the sake of example). That's the equivalent of 240K gallons of a 10% ABV fermented beverage (I used that number to fit between beer and wine...and ease). In the context of spirits, 60K gallons per year might even err on the high side. So, considering those numbers and applying them to your facility, can you process 250-300K gallons of wash per year? Is that a realistic threshold for what we're looking to define as "artisan" scale? Obviously this applies more towards those who are fermenting their own, or at least distilling the wash, not necessarily those blending, rectifying, infusing, etc. Perhaps this might also feed back into the definition or at least terminology debate of micro/nano/craft/artisan/Billy Bob and his corn squeezin's. [1] Paul [1] No affront meant to anybody here whose name is Billy Bob...it's just fun to say

I think a little silliness has its practical purpose of keeping people from taking themselves TOO seriously Paul G - Shoeshine boy during the day, SDSP Zeta Commando by the light of the moon. *cue ominous theme music* Don't ask me where I got the spandex outfit with the scarlet zeta...trade secret donchaknow.

Al Capone?

But then, considering the critera, you might be on to something with your sherry barrel idea. It's the little things sometimes.

From what I recall reading, Tennessee Whiskey is exactly as Bourbon with the lone exception being the charcoal mellowing/Lincoln County Process. If this holds true, then the mash bill would also hold true (>51% corn). I generally defer to Straightbourbon.com for everything Bourbon (including the exceptions). "Small World" aside...well whaddaya know, I never really noticed before, but there's a bunch of goodies in Straightbourbon's FAQ from ol' Chuck Cowdery. I guess it's akin to buying a car and you alluvasudden notice the same one all over the place where you didn't before. I'll just shuddup and listen now

What sort of issues has TTB had with Beer Schnaps? It's something I was looking into making, too, so I'm curious to see what the ultimate work-around will be...or could be. Have you yet tried the German spelling "Bierschnaps" yet? It appears that Essential Spirits in northern CA has gotten by with it. Theirs. That would make sense. I have a gut feeling that TTB is woefully behind in manpower to keep up with the needs of the industry it governs...in typical government fashion. It's obvious that as the microbrewing/distilling continues to grow, TTB will have a greater volume of work to handle. I just hope they recognize this before it drives potential businesses under by not having product to move due to application. Then again, change in the government is like elephant sex. Everything happens high up, there's lots of screaming, and you have to wait two years to see the results. Keep us posted on the "Biershnaps" (maybe?) and let us know what finally flies. I'm hoping to follow your lead

I read carefully and thought (perhaps too much) about each point I made. Perhaps I thought the appelation rules (at least in the context of Scotch and Tequila) were pretty much a no-brainer and really aren't that big of a deal to work with. I still fail to see how not being able to call something that doesn't fit a certain classification and therefore having to call it something else makes it so much more work? How exactly are there more hoops by virtue of not being able to call something by an established trade name that it doesn't fit? Who knows...perhaps I'm missing your point every bit as much as it appears you're missing mine. Call it talking down, call it hubris, call it what you want, but I still assert that compliance with appelation rules isn't as complicated as you're saying. Even Vodka has criteria to comply with (an entire other thread exists on simply whether or not they can be met with a pot still). Either way, Sensei, we're at an impasse and perhaps somebody with more mash under their fingernails than either of us will hand me my ass and we'll call it done. I stand to learn every bit as much by being corrected as I do from my own research...it's happened plenty of times in the past and will continue to happen. Never once did it happen by calling anybody an ass.

I don't believe it is I who is misunderstanding. "Single Malt" is not marketing speak. It's a specific term for a specific way of making whisky, regardless of its nation of origin. Remember, "Scotch" is simply another word "Scottish" in the context of whisky. People have just abbreviated "Scotch Whisky" to "Scotch." Nobody in their right mind is going to take a single malt whisky made in Canada seriously if it's labeled "Scotch" whether it's a single malt or not. It's akin to labeling a whisky made in South Africa "Canadian." Single malt is not the same as Scotch because not all Scotch is single malt. You can't forget blended, vatted malt, and grain. I sympathize with the difficulty with using the name "Glenora" in that it's where they are and it's a local name. I can't, however, understand the difficulty with not being allowed to call something that's not Scottish "Scotch." You don't see anybody having difficulty with not being able to call their brandy "Cognac" do you? Same thing...as it is with Tequila, Armagnac, Calvados, and the list goes on. Just so I follow the reference, please enlighten me as to the particular issues that Mr. Pritchard has been up against. I'm not familiar with his story. Anyway... It's really a matter of picking one's battles. There's infinitely more injustice in the world than not being able to call your single malt "Scotch." Besides, in the role of the microdistiller, we're catering not to the frat-party swill-sluggers. The big guys can have that. Our goal is to reach out to those who appreciate the higher quality, artisan-made, hard to find, specialty spirits. Remember, too, that these people are generally well versed in their spirits. They already know the difference between single malt, blended, Scotch, Irish, specialty cask matured, yadda yadda yadda. We'd look like idiots in their eyes if we arbitrarily labeled (assuming we'd even be allowed to) our products in such a way that contradicts what is understood by laws, tradition, and hundreds of years of history, just because we're not happy with what we believe is hoity-toity marketing-speak.

Sure, why not? There's no hard and fast reason to start out with a 500 gallon uber-reflux still-of-the-ages. Take Delaware Phoeix's example: a 30-ish liter alembic. You gotta start somewhere, and I'll rehash the old cliche': "you gotta walk before you can run." My initial understanding was that one had only to be in the state of Tennessee and add the charcoal mellowing/"Lincoln County Process" to what would otherwise would be Bourbon. This is a federal reg, not TN. "No reason???" Single malt is not "marketing speak" exclusive to Scotch. It's simply any whisk(e)y that's made purely of malted barley and distilled at a single distillery. Otherwise, Suntory, Clear Creek, and numerous other single malt producers never would have made it past their COLA. Agreed, "age" does not equal "maturity" Not true at all. Hotter maybe, but colder? Nope. You're missing a huge factor in the equation here. Bourbon (the TN guys do this also) is required to be aged in unused barrels. Scotch doesn't have that restriction. As far as I know, there's no Sctoch that actually uses unused barrels. They're almost exclusively used Bourbon and Sherry barrels. The chemical composition of the barrels is significantly different between its unused and its used state. Remember also simple business. The longer you leave your spirit in the barrel, the more it costs you. It's a liability and not an asset until you're handing the customer their receipt and it's left your warehouse. Less aging equals a quicker ROI. Same applies to aging at a higher %ABV. It's economy, not quality that drives that. That would be quite nifty, although with current labeling standards, it would simply be "whiskey, aged in sherry barrels, made in Tennessee." You sound more frustrated than anything. There's no reason why you can't experiment a little. There will always be hoops to jump through, whether it's OSHA regs for your facility, naming regs for your product, or what have you. I'm more inclined to know the laws front and back to figure out how to work the system to my advantage than to pour my energy into a potentially futile crusade to fix what might appear unjust on the surface...only to find out that a little deeper digging reveals some better founded basis for that piece of red tape. Don't get me wrong, I have no use for unnecessary bureaucracy, and I'll be as vocal as the next guy in terms of crying foul. I just don't want to be the guy yelling at people driving in my lane when I'm the one going the wrong way down a one way street.

Indeed (hence this topic) but there may still be some open angles. I think capturing the local market among mom-n-pop stores is a good one. How cool is it to buy a vodka/rum from your home town? Well, at least that's where I'm leaning. True, but remember, you have to be in Tennessee to make a Tennessee Whiskey...it's out of bounds for those of us in the remaining 49 states. Zero chance...same as being a Cognac distillery outside of France. Appelation rules leave that one to Mexico exclusively. That was actually enforced with Skyrocket distillery in Temecula, CA. with his agave spirit. Even without calling it "Tequila" he got hit. He wanted to spin it with a local twist by calling it "Temequila" but that was too close so it was shot down. They at least parlayed that into a mixer, which isn't subject to the same appelation rule. And that's how we come full circle back to vodka/rum/white spirits...no aging time required. You gotta start somewhere...but then, so did Stranahan's. They put the word out there well enough that their entire stock of whiskey was sold before it was released. Then again, Rogue's dark rum is aged only 6-9 months prior to bottling and they've gotten a good response. Just goes to prove that older does not necessarily mean better (doesn't disprove it either, but yanno...). Even so, putting some aside from each batch for aging will contribute to a stock that can be labeled "private reserve" or somesuch...more marketing fodder

Have you tried butter? It's what the Scots use.

I know it's a little late in coming, but just as a followup if it makes any difference: The difference between 304 and 316 stainless is negligible with regards to beverage/alcohol purposes...both are effectively inert. It's just a factor of a miniscule alloy ratio difference and oodles of cost. It does better in an acidic environment than caustic, but not really noticeably. Chlorine is its kryptonite, though, so avoid cleaning any stainless with bleach at all costs. Harsh caustics, no problem. Acids? Loves it. Chlorine = rapid destruction.

I know CA law is convoluted as all hell. My head was about to explode by the time I got through the "cans" the "cannots" and "except ifs" I *think* I'd be able to offer tasting, but I don't remember specifically. Either way, I'm keeping tabs on the potential "work-arounds" and filing them away for future reference. I'm still a long way from actually putting rubber to the road as it were, so I can go back and read and reread till my eyes cross so badly they straighten back out. I think the most useful thing I've done yet has been to print out what I find on-line and keep it in the library bathroom to chew on in small bites. That, and if it bores me to sleep, at least I'm somewhere private. I think I'll be ok talking up my product...I'm generally good with doing that for things I do and I believe in. One skill I'll have to spend extra time honing will be the simple act of breaking the ice. Then again, to become the reclusive hermit behind the still, I'll have to be well established enough to hire on reps...not bloody likely as a startup.

Check Go out drinkin' with the boys...a LOT! Check. I can only hope that the point where I reach burnout coincides with my brand becoming a household name so I can switch tactics Thank you again for the sage advice. Incidentally...if it seems that my goofy responses are simply me being flippant, that's not the case. I'm taking every word seriously. It's just my way of attempting to paraphrase in a way that I'll remember....and have a little fun. I know there will be plenty of un-fun along the way, so I make it where I can.

White out? Lots of valuable details to file away for reference, thank you!

Despite being after-the-fact, would it work (for potential future labels) to laser print on a transparency for a one-off prototype?

I'll go ahead and reveal my ignorance up front. What is the alternative to 'sales-driven?' What would be an example of marketing towards sales-driven vs. towards the alternative(s)?

Have any of you encountered any nightmarish tales of COLA approval? I recall St. George was delayed longer by their label than their formula. Anybody else run into similar situations?

Much congrats! So, based on your initial post on 2/4, was it really <6 months for permit approval from start to finish? Well done indeed.

I think my major hesitation would not be so much creating a unique(ish?) product, but once it's on the shelf, having it be found. Among a shelfload of 100 different bottles of vodka, what (besides an ostentatious/garish bottle) would have it stand out? Here's where I'll confess to being a sucker for a clever bottle. Time to bone up on marketing, I guess. Mind you, this isn't to be a cynic, but I'm just trying to think of possible angles that we'll encounter and expose them for further discussion.

Good to make your acquanitance, Yuseff. I'm pretty sure we've not yet had the opportunity to meet in person, though I'm a regular shopper at Home Brew Mart As far as a local guild, somebody may have already beaten us to the punch. I saw a card on the cork board at your Linda Vista store advertising the "League of Brewing, Distilling, and Concocting." I've emailed the fellow on the card (who works for NASSCO) and he seems friendly enough. You never know what possibilities there might be in having a contact in a shipyard. Yes, visions of giant, gleaming copper boilers have already run through my head. I'd love to drop by some time and talk shop. Sharing freight on barrels is always a plus...good suggestion! While I haven't actively looked into it, I would imagine the shipping on a used Bourbon barrel would be more than the cost of the barrel itself. Then again, I'm not averse to road tripping up to Temecula now and again to see what's available from the wineries. Cheers, Paul

I've found that reading the Arroyo patent treatise takes a few tries to absorb the concepts. I'll admit (a little embarrassingly) that I've used it for bathroom reading more than once to try to wrap my brain around it. Another helpful hint is to boil the diluted blackstrap and then allow it to stand overnight and decant off of the solids that settle out. It really smooths out the rough edges of the final product. It's also argued that, in keeping with GIGO [1], using light table molasses over blackstrap makes for a yet finer product in the end. [1] Garbage In = Garbage Out

Perhaps this might help: World Cooperage Barrel Profiling Further, the toast temperature has been quantified as follows: (Originally from World Cooperage)

In contrast to this, I'm seeing a surge in mom-n-pop coffee carts popping up. I've taken the time [1] to talk with the proprietor of at least three of them to get an idea of how business was going. As I'll be cutting my teeth for many moons to come, I find it easily overwhelming and daunting to embark upon what's a fairly esoteric [2] undertaking. I try to keep the wonder bread/whole foods analogy (loosely speaking) in the forefront of my mind to keep it in perspective. Every time I go to the ultramegagrocery and see Tito's vodka or St. George absinthe, I'm encouraged. Catching a glimpse of Clear Creek spirits of any flavor keeps me optimistic [3] and moving forward. The fact that Clear Creek sells out of their single malt whisky every...single...year tells me that there is definitely a receptive market out there. Cheers, Paul [1] In the few scant moments I could get a word in, as they were constantly busy [2] It's amazing how many of the general public have no idea that there's a difference between a brewery and a distillery. When I mention my aspirations, they ask me what kind of beer I'll be making. When I corrected one person by saying "...not beer, spirits, you know, liquor." the response was "oh, like mead?" [3] I *heart* Clear Creek and everything that Mr. McCarthy has done. Call me a groupie, but taking their distillery tour left me giddy...quite literally...and inspired.