Blue Bolt

3 minutes ago, bluestar said:

We don't see foam, because as I said, we don't use the StillDragon on mash or wash, just on wines or previous distillate.

Lol, sorry you had to say it twice.

Regardless, as I alluded to, good idea and I'll keep in mind.

BTW @Southernhighlander and @ChrisSD I'm just waiting to get my business card in hand so I can get the points. Should have an order made by end of week with one of y'all, one way or another.

On 7/4/2019 at 12:16 PM, bluestar said:

We have a 17-plate 4" StillDragon with Pro-Caps on top of Affordable Distilling 50 gallon w/ 3x5kW direct. This works great for distillations of high wines to vodka, for example. Even then, we see significant blackening of the bottom plates after a few distillations. I am not sure I would use the StillDragon for production of low wines from mash or wash. Why not do a strip without the StillDragon plates, just a copper upper still body?

At the end of the day that might be what has to happen. I'd like to experiment with trying to get the product I want out of one pass but worst case scenario I never do then just replacing the glass column with a copper section for a stripping run should help alleviate any sulfide concerns.

Are those bottom plates on your StillDragon seeing foam? I had read where they used to recommend a solid section before the glass column for certain washes to avoid the foam.

@Southernhighlander Nice model A! I'm sure there are some rockabilly chicks out in Missouri lookin' for a ride...

2 hours ago, adamOVD said:

I can't wait till these two put their differences aside, and become BFFs.😄

I'm not sure how big an issue you have to have someone to preface a "get well" with a "but I still don't like you" but obviously this is based on something long standing before I was lurking.

BTW @adamOVD how you like that heeler. I have one myself...great dog. I have a little familiarity with Bishop, CA. Hitchhiked out of the woods there about 10 years ago after a week in and around Yosemite. Good times.

13 hours ago, stevea said:

I've see that study before, and it's a bit hard to interpret WHY copper in the wash condenser and the spirit pot have the most impact.  The latter part of pg 110 says ...

<< When used for the first time, the laboratory scale copper stills produced a spirit with a relatively sulphury and meaty aroma. Several repeat distillations were required prior to the start of this experiment to reduce this aroma suggesting that some corrosion of the copper may have been required in order to activate it. The actual mechanism of sulphur compound removal, however, remains to be elucidated.>>

Copper has two oxidation states, and I might *suspect* Copper(I) oxide (Cu2.O) is the more likely hero of the story, can't say.   An acid cleaning would eliminate the Cu2O and perhaps make the still ineffective of sulfur removal.

The paper blames Dimethyl trisulfide (DMTS) as the main problem.  This chem is detectable & obnoxious  at parts per trillion!  It's not very volatile, but a little goes a long way.  Dimthyl Sulfide & sulfoxide are also present in large amounts, but are less problematic.  There is an old winemaking trick of adding copper or a little copper sulfate to get rid of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in wine. Copper sulfate can (w/ free chloride ions) remove DMSO.  I wonder if copper sulfate in the wash might eliminate the DMTS or precursors.

 

===

Do get well soon Paul.   I'm not your biggest fan, but I've been through the surgery/pain-killer thing myself and wish it on no-one.

Some good info to remember there about copper sulfate.  As of right now, it's unknowable until I start fermenting and distilling as there is just a ton of variables that dictate this between the two processes and whether or not you have to worry about sulfer.  I'll ferment and distill towards the product I think I want and can always adjust methods afterwards if sulfur seems to be an issue.  It seems like something that can be addressed in various ways as things go but I like to try and be preemptive.

4 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

While copper is absolutely necessary in the distilling process, build up of copper salts in copper condenser tubes can be a health issue for your customers.   A white spirit with a blue tint is a strong indication of copper salts in the spirit.  If you are running copper condenser tubes or a copper coil, you need to clean them regularly and thoroughly.  Do not allow copper salt build up in those tubes.

Copper salts on the upside of the vapor path cannot climb the column with the vapor so there is where you want to maximize your copper vapor interaction.  Our primary diffuser plate assemblies are on the upside of the vapor path.  Our secondary diffuser plate assemblies are on the downside of the vapor path, however they are easily cleaned and are generally a great deal smaller than the primary diffuser plate assemblies. 

Concerning stills for distilleries, all of our standard components for the down side of the vapor path are stainless steel except for the diffuser plate assemblies.  For our equipment in distilleries we  only build copper condensers upon request. 

Its funny how things change.  My dad never sold a still that didn't have a copper condenser.

Good to know stuff right there about the salts.  Had no clue. I'm going to run with the glass and bubble plates and adjust from there if need be. I believe the bubble plates will suffice but it seems there are various points during the distillation (and before during the fermenting even) to address things if I can't get them under control...as mentioned above.

3 hours ago, FijiSpirits said:

It covers fine. A single 20l bucket will have maybe 1.5-3l come off in total volume during distillation.  That leaves (realistically) like  3 gallons to cover the element which is typically about 3” off the bottom or less. I’ve done it dozens of times without issue.  IIRC all you can fit in a 13gallon reasonably is around 11 gallons, so 5 gallons is almost half full  

 

If you are really worried about it you can always add some water to the wash during distillation. 

 

Two things tho that’ll make your life easier at this scale. 

1- using 6 gallon or larger buckets makes life easier. 

2- use ultra low watt density elements. It reduces foaming caused by cavitation during boiling significantly. 

9 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

Our heating systems come with UL listed ultra low watt density elements.  You can run 5 gallons of wash in our 13 gallon with no issues.

I really appreciate both of y'all sitting down and taking the time to answer these questions.  I know they are simple as hell and maybe seem a little helpless but it's unfortunately the kind of thing you just can't really know without having it down in front of you.  I'm going to take the advice too and just bite the bullet and just start out with some fresh 8 gallons buckets.  I'm sure I can find some other uses for my 5 gallon'ers.

42 minutes ago, ChrisSD said:

The 13 gal milk can is used all over the world with an immersion element.  As long as you do your due diligence on the kettle charge, and keep an eye on the process, you'll be just fine.  That being said, people have dry fired elements in all shapes and sizes of kettles.  99.9% of the time it is operator error!

For sure, I don't think there is anything wrong at all with the capacity at this point and it's ability to work with a 4" column.  I'm speaking specifically of just using 5 gallon washes inside.  Heated from the bottom, sure no problem but I don't have a can in front of me and thus don't know if 5 gallons of wash will sufficiently cover the element or should I just count on 10 gallons.  The reason I'm asking and trying to deduce rigidly in multiples of 5 is because frankly I've got quiet a few 5 gallons buckets.  I realize there are other size options out there.

1 hour ago, FijiSpirits said:

Bluebolt I should correct my previous statement. I had a 13 gallon boiler not a 26 gallon. It was perfect for the 5 gallon bucket ferments. 

 

I will say that scaling recipies from 5 gallon was a bit of a thing.  

Yeah. Well I'm trying to develop what flavor profile I'm going for...it seems like a waste of energy and money up make 15 gallons of wash everytime. I'd rather have about four 5 gallon buckets fermenting every week/two and do two runs a day on Saturday and Sunday. Seems smarter space, time and resource wise. 

5 gallon wash enough to run a 13 gallon boiler/4" column or should I just bite the bullet and get 10 gallon buckets?

EDIT: Nevermind started using my head and realized I'm gonna use an element and 5 gallon wash in a 13 gallon can would leave the element dangerously close to be exposed, correct.  Looks like either way I'm gonna need to run 10 gallon washes and at that point.  Now that brings to the question would 10 gallons be sufficient for a 26 gallon kettle.  These will be rum washes so foam is to be potentially expected.

Quick question, I generally was operating under the assumption I wanted a 26 gallon milk can considering it was the largest 'hobby' product readily available. But as I've been considering my true needs a little more thoroughly I may be wrong.

In this still I will immediately be testing various yeasts for my rum wash in 5 gallon buckets...it seems like a 13 gallon may make more sense. Correct thinking?

I don't want to make three 5 gallon buckets for a 26 gallon boiler for every separate yeast run.

1 hour ago, Southernhighlander said:

Bluebolt,  our stills have copper defuser plate assemblies that maximize your copper vapor interaction (among other things).  I came up with the design 7 years ago.  Just one of my defuser plate assemblies guarantees 100% copper vapor interaction.  Most of our stills have at least 2 defuser plate assemblies.  We have glass bubble plate columns and we have the 26 gallon pots as well as 40 gallon pot belly pots.  Our 40s cost less than our competitors 30 gallon pots.  

I had to have an emergency surgery yesterday.  It will be 2 to 3 weeks before they will let me work in my office.  However, I have 5 office staff so everything will be running smoothly as always.  I have not been able to answer my emails since the surgery but I will be working from my bed on my lap top starting tomorrow.  

If you would like to talk about your needs, give me a call at my home number tomorrow 417-778-6100.  Or if you would just like to order call 417-778-6100 and ask for Susan. Here is Susan's email address: susan@distillery-equipment.com  

Thanks for reaching out but focus on getting better man. I work in healthcare so I tell patients 8x a day to not be afraid to admit to yourself you deserve a break.

I will reach out tomorrow cause y'all got everything I need and you've been on top of it since Day 1.

Get better.

1 hour ago, FijiSpirits said:

I started with a 13 gallon 4 plate column. Had zero problems pushing it.

 

i did eventually add an element for 9kw total and it was nice to have the extra power. 

 

Since then I’ve upgraded quite a bit and use SD Procaps which are incredible in their ability to go super slow or super fast. 

 

I am am a fan of using the 4”x4” stainless spools as plate lifts. I just don’t need a bunch of windows.  Really just want them at critical points. 

 

As to copper and sulfides. I’m not convinced it’s as important as some make it out to be. If your copper ain’t black at the end of a run, then you don’t have a sulfide issue. 

Thanks for the info!  My current thinking is to look into a copper condenser if I can't shake the notion of sulfur.

22 minutes ago, stevea said:

I *suspect* the copper plates & caps will do the job. wrt copper.

If you went to stainless you could electro-plate a copper layer in the interior - not hard to do.  [for those who might care to pick fights, the rectification fluids & vapor are not electrolytic, and the joint is not exposed], but frankly the glass column is likely to be educational.   

I recently heard the Beam uses a stainless column but adds copper pipe stacked within the column at some unspecified plate.  I can't attest to the accuracy.  Odd but plausible.

I had come across this study yesterday and it seems a copper condenser might be the best place for additional copper as well.  Earlier above I said adding copper before the plates like in the kettle but I had forgot about that article.  I guess I could always move forward with the glass and copper plates/caps and if I'm not happy with the sulfer level I could look into having a copper condenser made.

10 minutes ago, stevea said:

Yes, given your application bubble-plates are the obvious choice - for any small scale non-continuous rectification.

Thanks for the additional info and confirmation.

Bout made up my mind on a 4" glass Still dragon with the ProCaps...still a little concerned with sulfate removal with the only copper being the plates and caps but I guess we'll see. Trying to think of a way to add a little copper before it gets to the plates. Might be a waste of money. Not sure, any opinions on that would be great.

Stilldragon has some nice 30 gallon pot belly kettles but they want $2300 for the kettle and the fittings. Can't justify that. They don't sell a 26 milk can and I think a 13 gallon will be inconsistent pushing a 4" column. Probably will look towards Affordable Distilling or Hillbilly for the can and electric heating.

@Silk City Distillers At this point I'm sold on the bubble caps and will move forward that way.  Of course, now comes in the question of glass columns instead of copper.  I know you already utilize a Crystal SteelDragon.  Have you found that just the copper in the plates is enough to eliminate your sulfides?  I know for bourbon you're going to age it in a barrel anyways so you don't have to worry as much about sulfur notes but for rum that isn't always the case.  

Essentially I'm now trying to deduce whether I'm gonna go for a stainless kettle with glass column and 4 bubble cap plates or stainless kettle with modular copper column and 4 bubble cap plates.

13 minutes ago, Black Creek said:

"I'd like to get it down to where I'm making single runs to finished product."

 

I tried that too. I make stripping runs now. I have a 52 gal, 6" ,4 plate mile hi still. I am currently looking to build a 150 gallon stripping still and use the 52 just for spirit runs.

I hear low and slow can get it done for some. We will see. Seems like I see several people have success with single runs and rum more than other spirits but that may be confirmation bias at play.

5 minutes ago, bluestar said:

Because of their sensitivity, perf plates are very hard to stabilize if you decide to use more of them: as a larger stack they can get into oscillatory behavior where the higher pool depth and boil intensity will move up and down the column.

Thanks. I'm definitely team bubble cap now. I'm sold. Spent the better part of 4 hours yesterday looking into it.

8 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

I'm not sure what's going on there.  They do appear to be the same stills.  I will have to talk to my employees about it.    Thanks for pointing that out. 

The still in the links is a great R&D still that will produce similarly to our Pro Whiskey stills.  If you purchase a more complex larger still, then I can sell you the modular components needed for the R&D still to mimic your larger still.   Being able to remove the plates and run these 4" bubble plate columns as pot stills or with different numbers of plates adds a great deal of versatility.   We also have jacketed baine marie combination mash tun stills in this size.  These baine maries can also be ran as steam stills so they will more closely mimic a larger steam or Baine Marie still.  Being able to cook corn mash in them is a real benefit as well, however they are a lot more expensive.  The agitator increases the price by around $1800.00 including the VFD.  These are geared agitators with explosion proof Baldor motors.

No worries, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something silly.  As far as mimicking the components closely for this R&D still....I'm hoping the one I linked above will approximate pretty well.  That's essentially the amount of money I'm budgeting right now.  Agitators and jackets would definitely be nice but considering I look to move past this one within about a year, I don't want to invest a ton.  But if you have specific ideas on this that point towards a different still than what we've been linking too, I'd be a fool not to listen.

As a matter of fact this is the exact reason I'm not really paying much attention to the various eye candy glass column with copper plate options.  One, because I want the additional copper but two because I haven't seen any large systems (250 gallon and up) utilize this design.  I'm sure there are various reasons why.

1 minute ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Other thing to consider, if you are really using it as a development still, it should very closely approximate your production hardware.  Bubble caps vary by manufacturer, but most manufacturers use somewhat consistent sizing/ratios across their product line, which means the smaller stills will be more representative of the larger stills within reason.

Now, if your end goal is straight pot still, why bother with trays at all.  If you want cleaner product to blend, just redistill it at a higher proof.  Doing a separate strip and spirit run is going to come pretty close to a single pass through a 3 plate column.

 

Yeah I had alluded to this above.  At the end of the day I want the process to be able to scale from what I learn on, within reason.

I want to first get down running a pot still...then progress into running the 4-plate column (thus my desire for modular system).  I'd rather learn to strike a balance between the pot and the plates for my product than doing a single pot still run followed by column run and blending or, as you mentioned, redistilling period.  Once again, this comes more down to consistency than anything and eliminating variables....but also efficiency.

22 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

Yes.

Gotcha, my biggest concern is retaining congeners while bumping up the % a bit....definitely not looking for neutral spirits.  I'd like to get it down to where I'm making single runs to finished product.  I've done a fair share of reading throughout the day and between the advice here and what I've read, bubble caps seems to be the way I should go.  Thanks for that!

@Southernhighlander I had linked one of your products above actually, not sure if you saw.  These seem to be the same product on two different sites with two different prices -

https://shop.distillery-equipment.com/collections/stills/products/26-gal-moonshine-vodka-4-bubble-plate-copper-stainless-w-cooling-kit-2

https://moonshine-still.co/products/26-gallon-moonshine-still-with-4-copper-reflux-four-bubble-plate-column

Am I missing something?

1 hour ago, Southernhighlander said:

The earliest reference that I can find for a plate column being called a flute was from 2010 in reference to Hillbilly Stills perf plate column called the hillbilly flute,  The first per plate columns were being used in the mid 19th century.

We tested both perf plate and bubble plate columns when we started.  Just like Silk said: bubble plates have a broader range of operation and more flexibility,  also in my opinion bubble plate columns are easier to run and  easier to balance.  This is why we don't sell perf plate columns. Please see the link below.  We also have discounts for first responders, current military and veterans.  Whether you buy from us or someone else, I think that a bubble plate column will work better for you. 

https://moonshine-still.co/t/moonshine-stills?page=2

 

Appreciate the response. Maybe I'm being obtuse but I still am not sure of what the real world example of what 'flexibility' is afforded by bubble caps. Do y'all just mean they can potentially be ran harder and maintain balance easier?

6 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Perf plates are less flexible than bubble caps.  There is a concept called turndown, it’s the range of operating conditions the tray can support without flooding or dumping.  Bubble caps have a significantly wider turndown range than perforated.  What’s that mean to you?  It’s more flexible.  It’ll run faster or slower and with more or less reflux.  It's better, on every single measure possible (except maybe price).  Would think, that for a development still, experimental still, you want the widest potential set of options to utilize.  Modular, bubble cap.

Perf trays have their place, they work great in dedicated columns that run in a really tight range, usually making one thing (vodka).  In those cases, you don't need turndown and flexibility, you need the column to do one thing, every day, and not deviate.  So you can save lots of money by using the less expensive tray type.

Thanks for the response and I'll definitely look more into turndown but could you I guess provide me specific example where variability is beneficial. To me, and this probably suits my personality, but consistency appeals to me. Especially in regards to creating a product that already has so many variables to try and reign in.

I just want to make sure that this additional control I get through bubble caps is even something I'd care to try and be controlling in the first place. I prefer pot still runs and the only reason I'm even getting a column is one for the copper benefits and two so it can bump up the % occasionally and make higher runs when I need it for blending with pure pot runs. But I'm definitely open to suggestion, as maybe caps will make more sense for me, and now's the time to make those decisions.

After a few weeks of really honing in on what I need, I've all but set my mind to this hybrid/flute from Mile Hi here.  I'll be experimenting and refining technique with this still for about a year while I build out some other aspects and experiment with yeasts.  It also approximates the same setup I'd hopefully scale to eventually.  I will be using it to produce rum primarily. 

Does anyone have any immediate alternatives that comes to mind for near the same price point?  I have seen StillDragon often mentioned but their website has little to no flutes currently listed so I'm not really sure what is going on over there and doesn't inspire much confidence.  Don't like that the Hillybilly's aren't modular (in regards to the column).  Another option I came across here, from distillery-equipment.com but after doing a good bit of reading it seems like perf plates and downcomers are potentially more maintenance free than these bubble cap setups....although I know plenty of people work with bubble caps with no issue so that consideration is small.  Anything similar options I'm overlooking or additional thoughts on vendors I've mentioned would be greatly appreciated.