Jonathan Forester

Thanks... I saw that a split second after I took a sip of my gin. Now my monitor is soaked.

Where do I find those grain bills you mention? I have over 100 whiskeys in my 'spirits library' so if I can find the grain bills I can quickly figure out what I would like to achieve.

Personally I feel we need to define the terms for several reasons. Here are a few that just pop in my head easily. First, for our target, consumers of fine beverages. They should know and feel comfortable that we are producing an artisanal, handcrafted, premium product. Second, our secondary target, consumers who aren't yet familiar with artisanal spirits but with education may become consumers. Third, something along the lines of what Coale states that the terms be defined so that the big boys can't market products as artisanal, etc. when they are not. (Although I definitely don't agree with his approach of trademarking the term and then fighting to 'own' it when 'craft distillers' want to use the because it rightfully applies to them and their products. I think he is fighting a battle that long term will lead to him losing the war. Several states are setting up licenses for 'craft distilleries' and so taking his trademark out of the realm as such, and into that of legal terminology and defining it as a proper noun rather than an adjective.)

Gwydion- I agree with you about the point that a more encompassing and correct term is micro-distilling. A few months ago Bill Owens and I were tossing around some thoughts on terminology and definitions when he published the above letter from Ansely Coale, and then chatted a bit about it again earlier today. This is a great discussion because we really do need to define these terms as we also define this industry. Back in November I even predicted that this discussion on terminology would be happening soon. http://www.slashfood.com/2007/11/30/micro-...nto-high-speed/ Someone has even started towards defining the term at Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdistilling

I just signed up with them a few weeks ago. I don't know if it will be worthwhile or not. We'll see.

Congratulations Jon!

Robert- I agree with everything you said. I am making many of my spirits with the eventual cocktails in mind. Thinking about what products do best in different styles. I think my mixologist and reviewer background gives me an enormous range of known possibilities to work towards. I have well over four hundred bottles of different spirits in my collection to refer to, with more coming in every week. Some of my spirits will also be made for just drinking straight. When it comes to the gins I am developing I am looking in both directions. A big, full, over the top chock full of unique botanicals for drinking on the rocks or as a lesser ingredient in a cocktail. And one that is more savory, herbal, spicy, but light and flavorful with classic lines to it, and ultra smooth for martinis and for those who like a clean gin on the rocks. By the way, you state Tanqueray and Plymouth, two classic London dry styles. My fav in that style is Gordons. I feel that it is balanced right in the middle of the hundreds of gins out there and is a classic itself. As for the eventual cocktails, I hope to have mixologist friends helping me create new ones that point up the unique characteristics of my spirits, and adapting classic oldies as well. A great spirit is fantastic in and of itself, but can become magnificent and a work of art when made in to a classic styled cocktail. Jim Meehan made me a few Apricot Flips last time I was at PDT in NYC. Hine cognac is great by itself. So is the classic aged apricot brandy that is used in his rendition of this classic drink. But bring the two together with an egg, shaken up to a silky froth, and poured over a single large ice cube. WOW, a drink that changed me forever. The simple complexity was amazing.

Howdy Mr. Robert DrinkBoy Hess Sir- I'm at your forum a lot, usually just lurking and picking up info with an occasional post. I have to congratulate you and thank you for all you and the other new pioneer mixologists who have done so much to bring around the new golden age of the cocktail. It's totally changed my life, literally. The fascination and knowledge I have developed about cocktails has led me to adding the whole spirits and cocktail thing to my writing, entering the occasional cocktail competition, and directly to my current endeavor of becoming a partner in a winery, and opening a distillery and eventually brewery. Also it has led to me dropping many piles of cash at places like PDT, Pegu Club, Angels Share, Bookmarks, Death & Co, and many more as I get quietly muddled and then befuddled.

Don- what are you producing?

Tom- Hector is on Lake Seneca right? Do you have your facility and license yet? Where have you distilled before?

Hey there Marc- Congrats. So you're starting off with two tough ones. Figuring out the botanical blends takes a lot of trials and experimentations. I've been working on my botanical blends for my gins off and on for years. Good luck and welcome to the forum. Jonathan

It's hard to find info out there sometimes. So anyone want to throw around some thoughts? What types of molasses work best for what styles? What types of yeasts? What brix should it be lowered to for fermentation? What acidity? How to sterilize the molasses wash before pitching the yeast? Should it be filtered, fined, etc. before pitching to get rid of unfermentable solids? What temperatures for fermentation? How long should the fermented wash be stored for before distillation. Fresh vs. aged? Pot still versus reflux? Aging the final spirits? Types of barrels? used vs. new? barrel size? How to speed up the aging processs and develop the best flavor profile?

Does anyone know some good proportions of grains to use in developing whiskey, bourbon, rye, etc.? Lets say a bourbon: corn 51%+, wheat %, barley, %, rye%, etc. When do or don't you need to add malt? Can you use pure un-malted grains if you add b-amylase for the starch conversions? I heard that un-malted rye has the enzyme and you can make a 100% pure rye whiskey without adding amylase, is this so? How do I figure how much grains to water to get the right SG in my wash? What is a good SG for a grain wash? I have heard 1080

We have a used, 500 gallon fermenting tank with an external mounted chilling system attached, that we got dirt cheap. We just set that up with 5% glycol (the food safe type) and a pump to circulate the coolant to the brew kettle chilling plate, the fermenters, and condensers on the stills. It basically cost us the pvc pipe to circulate, and the pump which we also got used, dirt cheap. I'll let you know how well it works and the cost effectiveness.

I was on a drinks and cocktail forum and saw an unrelated discussion about copper vs. other substances and someone posted the following. I researched it and can find nothing to back it up. What do you think? "I would try to avoid using copper on food preparation, same as aluminum. I recently have been told by Santa Teresa's chief master distiller that copper it is actually not allwed for distillation since a few years back, for it is proved that with the use small particles of copper change their chemical composition to something called copper-6 which in turn it is dangerous for human ingestion. You may wonder why this is said but several drinks are distilled in copper pot stills and some of them even marketed it. Well, a lot of money goes around in the drinks industry, there are a lot of unknown things for regular consumers that drinks company do, even concerned with the ageing time stated on labels far beyond that the rule of "the youngest blend is the stated one"." http://groups.msn.com/DrinkBoy/general.msn...655441949364887

Hi Folks- I just want to throw something else into the discussion. What do you think about Ansley Coale at Hangar One and their trade mark of the term "Craft Distillers"? Here's a copy of a letter from Ansley Coale to Bill Owens. Dear Bill, This is about our trademark, Craft Distillers. Early in 2002, looking for a name for the marketing company I was starting up to market Germain-Robin, St George Spirits, and Hangar One, I came up with "Craft Distillers". At that point, to my knowledge, no one was using the term (people, including us, were then calling themselves "artisan distillers"). We applied to trademark the name Craft Distillers for 2 reasons, the first one being the normal commercial purpose of having a trade name that no one could copy. Still, I can imagine a bunch of hands-on distillers reading this and thinking: "who do those jerks think they are?" But we had a second and very important purpose: to prevent an unscrupulous marketer from using the phrase to misleadingly name a product made with non-craft methods. Unfortunately, in order to maintain a valid protection of the trademark, we are required to protect the trademark Craft Distillers from all commercial use by others, no matter how mellow/low-key/small-production someone might be who wanted to use it. We have in fact twice prevented other producers from making commercial use of this trademark. At the moment the trademark has been in continual use in use for 5 1/2 years - among other places, on the bottles of the brands we market - and it has been registered since early 2004. I'm writing this as an attempt to prevent an unfortunate situation in which someone might - in good faith - use the phrase Craft Distillers, or some other phrase or variant close enough to the trademarked phrase to allow a consumer/tradesperson to confuse it, for commercial purposes. As I said, for the reasons I mentioned in the first two paragraphs, we would of necessity proceed to prevent that use, a situation we would much rather avoid. Bill, I would be grateful if you would print this. Hope all is well. Warm regards, Ansley Coale Craft Distillers

I agree with you Robert. A combination would be good with some type of filters for different levels. General Public Moonshiners (have experience distilling, may be legal in some countries) New Distillers (actually in process of opening a distillery) Distillers (have licensed distillery)

Coop- I'm no expert but have been doing some intense research. If anyone catches any errors please correct me. thanks I've been looking in to what yeasts to use for whiskey myself. Super Start is primarily a fuel alcohol yeast. It can be used for neutral spirits but isn't recommended for it. It sounds like you are going for a whiskey. You may want to try this from White labs WLP050 Tennessee Whiskey Yeast This yeast is famous for creating rich, smooth flavors. Clean and dry fermenting yeast. Will tolerate high alcohol concentrations (15%), and ester production is low. Attenuation: >80% Flocculation: Medium. Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 60-90°F Here's a link: http://www.whitelabs.com/distilling/yeast.html Or you may want to try this brand. Ian Smiley thinks it's great http://www.whiskeyyeast.com/ And I've heard good things about the turbo that The Colonel sells. http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/id39.html Are you running your still wide open for making whiskey? All plates turned off to get as little reflux as possible, to get as close to a pot still effect as you can with that still? When mashing grains I was given the following info from Alexander Plank of Christian Carle Stills 1/5 grains:4/5 water Liquify the mash for 30 minutes at 70-85C Saccharify for 30 minutes at 55C while adding some B-Amylase to get full enzyme conversion drop to 30-32C and pitch yeast Should be about a 4 day ferment Does this sound right to any of you folks?

Coop- is your Bavarian/Holstein new from the makers or used? They didn't provide any training or service? If so then that's ridiculous! I know the folks at Christian Carle and they provide great training. What yeast are you using for what product? Rum, whiskey, vodka, eau de vie really work better with specific yeasts. Vodkas and some whiskey work well with turbos. There is rum turbo and also some rum specific yeasts like Danstil 493. Eau de vie is supposed to be great when you use Danstil CM. (I am trying to track it down. Danstil is a Lallemande yeast) To add a photo- look at the top of the post panel at the icons. The one that looks like a small painting is for inserting an image.

I am just getting into cider commercially. I brewed some a few years back but there was a fire at the ciderworks and everything was destroyed. I haven't heard of Cider Digest but will look into it. These first batches are made with desert apples which is why I want to put them on wood to get some tannins. In the future we will be sourcing bittersharps and bittersweets from some local and regional orchards. Is there a national cider organization?

I think that 70% resale is great as well. I'm going to see how well I do selling back my spent grains to the farmers I will buy from. When I do I'll post back. I am arranging to guy organic grains from organic dairy farmers and then sell it right back to them. They'll drop a load of grain at the brewery and take back a load of spent.

Hi Folks- I'm Jonathan Forester of the future Penobscot Bay Distillery & Brewery in Winterport, Maine. Just back in late November 2007 I got in touch with Bill Owens to ask him a few questions and to write some articles for him. Basically I am a food and beverage writer and consultant (www.SlashFood.com and other places online and print) who got the distilling bug when visiting a local small farm winery and distillery. Well one thing led to another and within days I was partnered with Winterport Winery to open a distillery and brewery. Soon my savings was flying from my accounts, stills were ordered, I was attending artisan distilling workshops, visiting distilleries, and getting the license application sent off. We just finished the electrical wiring of the facility last week and hope to have the plumbing, gas, and drainage finished eventually. Then I guess I'll just twiddle my thumbs until the still arrives. I expect to be up and running within an eon or so. I wanted to stay low budget and buy American so I am getting a hand made copper pot still and having a stainless and copper pot stripping still made to my design. I plan on making a plethora of products starting with rum, whiskeys, aged fruit brandies, gin, and fortified wines. I am going old school and will be using a direct fired pot spirit still, and a steam stripping still. I am shooting for limited amounts of premium product. Basically it will be a 2-3 man operation to start and then we'll see where it goes from there. We also just started making hard cider and have several small, 250 gallon batches of English style dry cider that are currently aging on wood. For my personal use I have put some intoo used whiskey and rum kegs as a special reserve hard cider for the holidays.