Silk City Distillers

First, the photo of the vapor erupting from the small boiler with the guy standing next to it is amazing, I'm guessing they got that from surveillance or other video, because it appears to have captured the moment immediately prior to explosion (Photo 1 of 9)

Looking at the other photos, it appears that the copper condensing coil separated from the fitting at the top of the boiler. Looking at the photos, the before shows the condenser coil attached, leading to a flake stand or a thumper of sorts. Look at the background of photos 2/9 and 3/9. There are more shots of the apparatus in the video, which doesn't appear to show a triclamp clamp attached to the top ferrule, not sure if this was intentional or not.

Lighting in the immediate vicinity of the still does not appear to be explosion proof, but standard FL fixtures.

But to your original question, some very rough napkin math - assuming 10kw boiler power, 225 liters volume, no efficiency losses, and a boiler content of nothing but pure water, you can expect to vaporize approximately 15.86 liters of water per hour. Again, I have no idea the contents of your boiler, so this is based on water alone. (36,000kJ/hr / 2,270kJ/kg = 15.86kg/hr)

Assuming starting temp is 15c and 100c is the ending temp, 225 liters, the same 10kw boiler power, you can expect approximately 2.25 hours for heat up.

Putting it together, you'll need to reduce 225 to 75 liters for the liquid in the boiler to increase from 3 to 9 brix. This means you need to boil off 150 liters, which will take 9.5 hours (again with the 10kw power, no losses). So a total of 11.75 hours, but more realistically with losses probably nearer to 13 or 14.

This also assumes that your condenser can handle 100% of the input power and you don't need to reduce the input heat. Some more rough napkin math puts the condenser sizing somewhere around .5 meter of 10 sections of .5 inch pipe in shell (this will largely depend on your input water temps and potential flow rates.

The liquid you are distilling contains no alcohol?

You seem to mention evaporation, and are focused on the geometry of the distillation vessel, however useful vaporization will be as a result of boiling and not evaporation. So, geometry is of less importance, and the critical factor with regards to timing will be how much power you have available for your heating element (which you do not mention).

You may run into issues with the final sugar content of your wash, with internal elements I suspect you may caramelize and burn on the elements.

Are trying to reduce the content of your liquid to 1/3rd of the original volume through the process, using only evaporation? I suspect this process would take significant time as the vapor would likely condense on the vessel walls above the liquid, because you'll have a difficult time generating sufficient vapor volume to push through to the condenser.

The other interesting scenario is that your volatile flavor components might find their way distilled out in the very early stages of the process, probably within the first gallon or two processed, if I were to wager a guess.

Sounds interesting, do you need to be vague to protect your commercial process or can you share more details?

Problem with the smaller diaphragm pumps is their ability to pass solids shrinks to almost nothing, and the flow rates leave a bit to be desired.

My 1/2" ARO can handle about 1/16th OK. I've tried pumping a fermented grain-in mash, just for kicks, and it worked, but it's abysmally slow with my smaller compressor, and the hoses were convulsing with every pulse. Honestly, it would have been faster with buckets. Concur with Natrat, something closer to 1.5", with the ability to pass at least 1/4", would be better suited and provide much more flexibility.

2 pounds per gallon based on flour-ground solids would be relatively easy for an air-powered diaphragm pump.

If you've got the room, probably cheaper to buy a fork lift.

Go old school, 5 gallon bucket, timer, and a thermometer. Take a reading mid-run, probably another towards your end.

You should be able to get a good handle on your input temps (measure the temp at the faucet after a few minutes of running, the delta t and a flow rate during the run.

You'll probably get a more accurate reading this way than using an inexpensive flowmeter, anything accurate costs a small fortune.

For me, controlling the temperature in the fermentation room is enough - minute variation in the temperature of the wash as the yeast propagates yields taste profile differences that please me.

Controlling room temperatures requires a room, which may not be available, or cooling the entire production floor, which might not be a realistic option. From an energy efficiency perspective, it's going to require less energy to control the fermentation temp than it is going to be to control the room temp to indirectly control the fermentation temp. Also, depending on the fermentation volume and geometry, it might require an air temp lower than you expect. I've had ferment temps get into the 80s with an ambient temp in the 60s, so I can't imagine trying to cool a building down to the 60s when the outdoor temperature was in the high 90s. I don't have walls, and I sure as heck won't be paying to add air conditioning (jacketed fermenters look cheap in comparison).

Coconut carbon tends to have less dust than dinosaur carbon and rinsing either type is absolutely necessary to remove fines. If you are flowing upwards, flow rates should be slow enough that you are not bringing media into suspension where it might be agitated and break apart. However, coconut based carbons are less aggressive than their T-Rex counterparts, especially with some organics. They also tend to remove less color. These traits may be desirable for you, they may not be, but it's an option.

I wonder - was Vendome going for the Steampunk R2 D2 look?

Brewers beer

is much too dear

to be put inside a still

Especially when

most of it

will just end up as swill

A nice price

You best be chargin'

'Cuz sure as hell

It won't come back as margin

310g for $1000 = $3.23 a gallon

500g for $2000 = $4 a gallon

How do you make the economics of this work? Is this tasting room retail only?

Yes, but I'm not sure it's a matter of good or bad, it's a matter of different (well, except if you burn, than it's just plain bad). I've tasted plenty of very good products made with direct immersion elements, so it's absolutely possible.

But - it will depend on your product, direct contact elements will have a higher proportion of localized maillard reaction products (some volatile, some good, some bad) as well as some amount of burning. Surface temperature of elements will be significantly higher than the inside jacket temperature of steam or bain marie - this is going to make a difference. So, operational differences are a big factor, bourbon wash distilled on grain vs off grain will be different (you can do both with steam, but only one with elements). With elements, any included solids (grain, botanicals, skins) will likely burn. Also depending on your mash bill, you might find that grains high in glucans tend to burn much more easily with elements. Also, a little bit of meatiness is typically associated with distilling un-racked wash, complexity at low levels, a major flaw at high levels.

This is one area where the hobby forums would have had much more experience, since this is approach that most graduate to after direct firing. Cheap and easy with 15 gallons, much more difficult with 250 gallons.

Competition? There is no competition among craft distillers. The competition is mainstream perception, and the biggest threat to us all is poor quality 'craft' product (well, and bad legislation).

We're about 4-5 months out at this point - how about a friendly race?

Give me a call, we should chat - we're looking to set up a state guild.

jb

Silk City Distillers

There are just so many factors that might play into whether or not an entrepreneur will be successful or not - some that can be controlled, some that can't be.

I've worked with some personality types that needed the motivation of utter financial failure, and worked with others so risk averse that they'd fail in the same situation.

Had the opportunity to work with a number of startups over the years, some close, some from afar, and from my perspective - "I want to leave my job" is a warning sign other than not. Much too easy to have rationality and objectiveness clouded by the emotion associated with an existing job, especially if there is some kind of resentment attached (overlooked for a promotion, didn't get a raise, issues with supervisors/co-workers, bored). It's too easy to get caught up in the passion and romance of an idea, without the necessary pragmatism. Don't get me wrong, that passion is a necessary prerequisite, but I've seen how easy it is for people to fall in love with half-baked ideas.

Keeping your day job is probably a good recommendation for most. Quote from someone on ADI I heard a few weeks ago stuck in my head. You pay your bills from 9 to 5, you make your fortune from 5 to 12.

Always thought that a potential option for an undersized steam boiler installation would be to get creative with reducing your mash delta-t, specifically by utilizing tankless hot water heaters to preheat mash water to as near mash temp as possible. Not proposing you knowingly undersize your steam boiler, but if you found yourself in that situation, it's easy to add another 200kbtu, at relatively low cost compared to replacing your boiler. Commercial units can heat up to near 175, if you can deal with the much lower flow rates as trade off. Many manufacturers offer units that can be chained together to increase temp or speed, as with anything else, money is time and time is money.

Depending on your workflow and schedule, it could be a lifesaver, or, it could be meaningless, up to you to determine.

This approach is starting to become commonplace among budget nanobrewers who hit the limits of electric heated HLTs.

Someone check my math, was up early and only had 1 cup of coffee.

Regarding your strip run math, you'll run into diminishing returns into the tails. You've got to weigh the cost of time and energy against squeezing out every last drop. 20% is probably more realistic at 8.5% abv. Check your yield - 840 liters at 8.5% abv is 142.8 liters of 50%, 178.5 liters of 40%, and that is only if you squeeze out every last drop, which you likely won't.

You need to take into account the volume of the grain vs your mash tun capacity. 1200 liters (317g) water and 1000 lbs of grain would require something around 2000 liters capacity. More realistically, if you aren't pushing for high yield, and you want to deal with a nice easy mash (and not a monster), you'll probably be doing something like 250 gallons water, 500 lbs grain, which should put you somewhere near the total capacity of 300 gallons, the only challenge is now you're dealing with much less than the original 8.5% you factored for (this isn't a suggestion, only an example). You can make your own decisions, but sometimes it's easier to just go bigger than deal with trying to get the highest yield possible.

If you are using the same still to both strip and spirit - you'll want to do more than 2 strips per spirit run - otherwise you are wasting time. Based on the 20% figure above, factor 4 strips to a spirit - depending on losses, lower than expected yields, etc, you might be able to do a 5-to-1

Thanks for the info on that Danfoss Valve - something to be said for the simplicity of the approach.

Natrat - are you simply just controlling the pump on/off with the relay, or are you using some sort of proportional control valve?

Last question I promise on the steam valve - any suggestions on a controllable proportional valve? Was looking at something like a Belimo LF24-MFT.

Would love to see it - we're currently using modified 5g corny and 15.5g sankey kegs.

Too small to reach your goals.

When I plug your numbers into my production spreadsheets, and adjust for batch sizes, your 3500-5000 case production capacity looks like a long shot, and I'm assuming 6 pack cases of 750ml. Unless of course you are just redistilling GNS, but you look to be including a stripping and spirit still, mash tun, and fermenter.

Initially, you are going to be limited by fermentation capacity, next limiting factor will be the number of realistic production hours in a week. This, of course, assumes that labor is entirely free, since if you factor in labor costs, well...

The reason you haven't seen much is because it is irrelevant to the process, you don't control it, it controls you... The boiling point of the wash is a function of the alcohol content. To simplify, your boiling point will range from 78c to 100c as you go from 100% to 0% ethanol.

If you were going to try to control it, you'd find yourself having to raise the wash temperature through the run in order to keep the still running, otherwise, if you set a midrange set point, once that set point was reached and the ABV of the wash fell, you'd cease to generate sufficient vapor.

In terms of how quickly you can heat your pot, that's going to depend on how much money you have … no, really.

You will get to a point at which you need to employ alternative (read: more expensive) techniques to get your pot up to temp faster. A full jacket would be able to heat faster than a 1/2 jacket without scorching. A full high pressure jacket will be able to heat faster than a low pressure jacket. Agitated boilers will heat faster than non-agitated boilers (these are all gross oversimplifications by the way).

Easier to think of the process in terms of the amount of energy you need to add to get the volume of vapor you require. You want to run faster, you need more energy, run slower, less energy. All the techniques you list above are just mechanisms to transfer energy, some have benefits, some have constraints.

We propagate yeast from slant to pitchable volume, it is more work but it allows us to utilize yeasts that would otherwise not be available (in dry form) or too expensive at the volumes necessary for pitching. We personally feel that there is a somewhat substantial flavor contribution of the yeast, and that this process is worth the result. I know others do not share this opinion. We've done informal double blinds and differences are relatively easy to discern. I personally prefer a more complex fruit/estery aroma on the nose, and that is much easier to get with an ale style yeast than a standard distillery style yeast.

A single white labs vial is enough to inoculate thousands of slants - that $9 is a bargain. Haven't looked in a long while, but I thought pitchable volumes from White for 7bbl were something like $150-200 shipped - not bad for beer, very expensive for whiskey.

I have no formal microbiology training, only two semesters of micro in college, yet with good process and meticulous cleanliness I can achieve very consistent results. It is a considerable amount of work however, think of the yeast as having a few more kids to babysit.

Does anyone have a source for steam injector nozzles? I assume they are similar to mixing tank eductor nozzle, but I've only ever seen those in plastic.