absaroka

One distillery may not make a huge impact on the state's economy, but several will. The more distilled spirits you have produced in-state equals less raw products exported to other states. Distilling from grain/fruit/etc. is a large monster to feed. It also can stimulate future crop planting instead of CRP land-(non)use. The tax dollars made on grain sold and distilled in the state is far greater than that of grain sold for out of state consumption/production. There are other states like Washington that prefer to have a native product produced and marketed. It's good business. Growers thoroughly enjoy seeing where their products end up and distilling is born from agricultural roots. Seems like a natural fit to me. I know my producers would rather sell to me than China. It seems like what this boils down to is the purchase of NGS. Denver Distiller had a great plan. Of course, the alternative is just to make it yourself.

I don't think the TTB cares what or how your still is fired, but your local fire marshal sure will. You might want to look more into ASME and fire codes for an answer.

Montana's HB 517 http://data.opi.state.mt.us/bills/2005/billhtml/HB0517.htm Allows for sampling room and on-site sales.

Stainless steel tanks.

And that's why it pays to have an ASME certified still built by a company that knows what they're doing (not to mention it's a code violation if you don't).

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...ka.3b35d20.html Setbacks don't dampen spirits of vodka-making brothers in Hill Country 06:41 PM CST on Thursday, January 1, 2009 By KAREN BROOKS / The Dallas Morning News kmbrooks@dallasnews.com DRIPPING SPRINGS, Texas – A pair of brothers from Dallas is learning that vodka is a dangerous business – and not because of one-too-many New Year's Eve shots. The Kelleher brothers will celebrate survival and renewal this New Year's, grateful that their Dripping Springs Vodka distillery limped through a holiday season of tragedy and devastation wrought by fire. By mid-January, they hope to have their family business, San Luis Spirits – operating less than two years – back up to 100 percent, shipping 3,400 cases a month into a market increasingly thirsty for Texan spirits. But they look ruefully on the past 20 months, with two fires, and a flood during the epic rains of 2007, and wonder what else they'll have to overcome in order to make vodka, as their great-great-great-grandparents did. "You can only do the phoenix act so many times," said Kevin Kelleher, who co-owns and runs the company with his brother, Gary. Their little office on a tiny piece of tree-covered property looks more like a campsite than the place an award-winning vodka is made. A few yards away, a huge pile of charred copper and burnt wood and twisted metal is surrounded by a fence and police tape. Kevin Kelleher calls it "the bomb site." It used to be the heart and soul of their operation, with six copper stills designed by Gary Kelleher himself and built in the Hill Country. On Nov. 7, a contractor was inside the metal building that holds all six stills when hot vapors ignited and the building exploded. The stills rocketed through the roof, and the worker went to the Brooke Army Medical Center with second- and third-degree burns, according to reports. The Kellehers, citing potential litigation and the investigation, declined to comment specifically on the explosion, other than to describe its effects on their business. The fire is being investigated as an accident. Production stopped immediately; at least 5,000 cases – and perhaps much more, given the holiday season – that normally would have been made and shipped were lost. Three weeks later, two new stills were up and running in a temporary spot a few steps away from the original site, fenced off and in the open air. But it took six more weeks for the first new bottle of Dripping Springs Vodka to be sealed and sent down the line. The brothers hope to be up to full production by mid-January. After that, they plan to move to a new site altogether, up the road in an old granite-cutting factory. Gary Kelleher had the idea to bring back the family tradition of vodka-making in 2005, and his brothers Kevin and Tim had just sold their international consulting business. Tito's, a popular Austin brand, had gotten national and international acclaim as the first Texas vodka, so the Kellehers have faced tough competition from the beginning. Apparently, the idea of distilling vodka was an acquired taste for Kevin Kelleher. In spite of some initial skepticism, he and his wife, Susan – who says the fires gave her pause about continuing the business – moved from San Luis Obispo, Calif., to Dripping Springs. He put his life savings into the new business. The distillery was up and running in May 2007. In its third month of operation, with two copper stills running and a market limited to Austin, San Antonio and South Texas, the company's only building and everything inside it went up in smoke. Gary Kelleher was distilling vodka into five-gallon glass jars that were built not to explode – but one of them did, igniting propane pipes underneath them. He was unhurt, but everything burned. The office, the bottling operation, both stills. It took three months to get running again. Then, a year later, in September, Dripping Springs Vodka won the Vodka Purity Trophy at the International Wine and Spirits Competition in Surrey, England – an award that hasn't been given to anyone since 1987. It was a vindication of sorts: proof, if you will, that the brothers were meant to carry on the tradition of their German forebears. And they proudly display the trophy in their office, in full view of the latest "bomb site" outside the windows. What amazes the Kellehers most is that their stubborn refusal to give up is mirrored in others who have a stake in the operation and stay with them while they literally rise from the ashes. Twice. "They're good people, and they keep battling back from their adversities," said liquor distributor Bud Luckett, adding that he has faith not only in the brothers but in the product. "Maybe they should change their name to Phoenix Vodka."

That answers it right there for me.... we have a very corrupt association that lobbies against this (specifically wine) but somehow I can purchase liquor from the on-line retailers without a problem. Thanks for your input! Bryan

Actually, Don likes to be called "THE Don" and Kent likes hugs from behind with a slow song playing in the background.... I kid (or maybe not). I don't remember, those two can handle their "product" quite well. The Dry Fly guys are phenomenal! -30*F will change your mind about that in a hurry....

No license awarded. Yep. Legal, licensed, bonded, insured, and broke!

We're the first licensed distillery in Montana.... Good luck in your venture(s)! Bryan

Coop: how are you able to ship out of state without being set up in that state as an approved wholesaler? We'd like to get in to internet sales at some point, but the conversations I had with on-line liquor retailers contradicted what you are doing.

outstanding.....

I hope, for your sake, your response is laced with sarcasm.... otherwise you've just shown your rear!

I'm sure you did you due diligence to get around it, Guy. That was the only example I found on here that I could relate my argument to. And I also put the disclaimer that the local officials have to agree with what the code says. If everyone doesn't get that "warm fuzzy" feeling then you're at their mercy..... I totally understand where you've been with that. It's only money, right?!?

I'll add something here that has been helpful to me along with the exception codes that were listed above (there are more exceptions in the IFC if anyone is interested). Guy, I noticed in another post that you got a H3 Hazardous Occupancy permit which made your local fire officials happy. In my opinion you have painted yourself in a corner by admitting your products are hazardous. By steering your local building/fire guys in the direction that you are manufacturing a FOOD GRADE PRODUCT, there is no hazard.... if this were a hazardous material you would not be able to sell it to the public for consumption (I think the only alcoholic beverage that has an MSDS label on it is everclear). That is exactly the scope of the exceptions in the IFC Chapter 27 and Chapter 34 codes: to allow beer, wine, and spirits to remain on-site without being bound by hazardous/combustible/flammable code definitions. So, my suggestion to anyone that reads this thread is to look these codes up and let your local officials know that you are making a consumable food grade product that is not dangerous. Do not give in to MSDS sheets for your spirits (required for non-consumable hazardous materials), H3 occupancy (manufacturing fireworks and explosives fall into this occupancy category), or any other forms of subjective bargaining to insinuate what we do is dangerous. Trust me, if you have another distillery in the state, or even a neighboring state, that is bound by all of the hazardous regulations you will fall victim to it too. If we all set the precedent that what we are doing is safe and can back that up with ICC codes, everyone will be better off in the long run. This all, of course, is subject to local approval but what I have written here will give you plenty of meat to argue the point. I have more on this issue, but this pretty much covers the appropriate code exceptions for distilling applications.

Listen, we all have our own ideals about what this "micro-distilling" industry should be.... but do it on your own with the best of intentions and let it go! You have no Sherriff's badge in this world and I'm willing to bet you don't even own a still or have a DSP permit. You have submitted many questions, which have turned into some great debate between other members but not you. Your process for asking these questions has been amateurish at best. I'll reference the "mash vessel", "enzymes", and "sugar" posts you started in other areas as examples. We're all here to learn, but if your initial posts are about arbitrary process techniques and then you proceed to bash those that have actually put up their money and time to further their success.... well, then you're out of line. I'm born and raised in the west... and I pull no punches. If you don't like what I have to say I really don't care and we can talk off-line about that. This is a thread/conversation for another time and place (especially so when you have something to contribute to the cause). I'm here to converse with other industry PROFESSIONALS and help those that want to LEARN. Your criticism holds no value and I would respectfully ask that you refrain from such conversations and accusations until you have walked the line yourself. Stop wasting bandwidth, have a dram and chill! Bryan EDIT: there's a lot of products in the market that were not made by anyone associated with it (both large and small distilleries). I won't name names, but it's out there.... if you think buying bulk NGS is cheating that's nothing compared to the mass marketing behind some ghost "distilleries" out there who, in fact, don't distill a damn thing.

Then Don tried to sell them to us for far more than what he paid for in the auction. When we got the recipe and it was a business card for DRinc, it was a little disappointing. In all seriousness, recipe's for anything are subjective to what you like or want out of the product. How many different ways are there to make chocolate chip cookies? Dammit, now I'm hungry. You get the idea.....

BRILLIANT!

Another code I found during my investigation: NFPA 400 (new version of NFPA 30): Hazardous Materials Code 1.1.2: Exemptions 1.1.2.6: Beverages, where packaged in individual containers not exceeding 1.3 gal (5 L) capacity; and distilled spirits and wines in wooden barrels or casks. EDIT: I have not physically seen this code... I don't have anything near me to look it up and I don't feel like spending the money to see if it's there. This was second-hand information and was (somewhat) confirmed by a search on the NFPA site. OSHA 29 CFR 1910.106 1910.106(d) "Container and portable tank storage" - 1910.106(d)(1) "Scope" - 1910.106(d)(1)(i) "General." This paragraph shall apply only to the storage of flammable or combustible liquids in drums or other containers (including flammable aerosols) not exceeding 60 gallons individual capacity and those portable tanks not exceeding 660 gallons individual capacity. 1910.106(d)(1)(ii) "Exceptions." This paragraph shall not apply to the following: 1910.106(d)(1)(ii)(a) Storage of containers in bulk plants, service stations, refineries, chemical plants, and distilleries; ...... NOTE: Container exemptions: [a] Medicines, beverages, foodstuffs, cosmetics, and other common consumer items, when packaged according to commonly accepted practices, shall be exempt from the requirements of 1910.106(d)(2)(i) and (ii).

OUTSTANDING!! Thank you very much! We'll see if that is all it takes. The local fire/buiding departments don't have the slightest clue what to do with me. This will help.

Any luck so far?

edit: long day.... Paul's response is much better than mine.

take spent mash (i.e. setback) and add lactobactillus... voila, sour mash.

You said the magic words: "peaty note". Now I get why you like the setback of a single malt. That makes sense. A setback would definitely intesify those flavors. For the ones that I have tried (which are very few, I admit), the flavor profile seemed almost confused as far was what was going on. The malty/grainy base was missing that you normally would get in a single malt (and by single malt, I mean a barley-malt base only). But that's just me.... I'm sure there are others who enjoy it. It's a neat concept and I've thought about fooling around with that process as well. Hell, we're craft distillers, why not? As for why a backset works so well with bourbon, my perception is it has alot to do with the main ingredient: corn. It is a much different animal compared to barley malt.

I have yet to come across this one... perhaps yours will be my first. I was strictly speaking from my own palate as far as the "not pretty" comment. Bourbon sour mashes are outstanding, however. The process of sparging/lautering is a good point when you talk about efficiency.... but if you ferment on the grains of a single malt mash, your conversion factor raises significantly. No need for a back-set (unless you are after the flavor element). Great discussion!