absaroka

A quick fermentation would have no need, strictly from the aspect of pH and bacteria, for a sour mash or back-set since there is very little time for harmful bacteria to become a problem. There is also a plethora of enzymes in barley malt to facilitate conversion without the need for this. I'm speaking from a single malt barley perspective. Like PaulG pointed out, sour mashing also provides continuity between batches, primarily in bourbon in this case. There are other products that use this method: lambic beer for example. Barley malt, or any grain for that matter, adds its' own character to whatever you are making/mashing/fermenting. I guess maybe you need to clarify what, exactly, you are trying to add enzymes to... whisk(e)y is produced very differently depending on where it is made.

I'll weigh in on enzyme usage. There are many bases that require enzymes for conversion that aren't normally there.... you could add distiller's malt to that base to get full conversion or you could just add enzymes. Many producers, big and small, use them. A hot and fast fermentation would not require a back-set (sour mash) and would benefit from additional, or readily available, enzymes to ensure full conversion. A single malt sour mash just isn't pretty IMHO.

????? It's meant to control pH levels and bacteria growth.

Devil's Advocate on this topic: To me, and the drinking public, nobody identifies with the term "rectifier". Why use it? It's more of a process than it is a title. Why fight an uphill marketing battle and explain to everybody why your operations is called "Jim's Rectifying" instead of "Jim's Distillery"? It sounds like you're a petroleum refinery. The disclaimer on this is those who buy, blend, and bottle therefore diluting the terminology. That goes without saying, hopefully.....

I appreciate you checking for me (us). If it is, indeed, the silver bullet I've been looking for then I owe you copious amounts of beer at the very least.

I bought one not too long ago from Apollo.... great service and a very nice looking/operating mill.

ADM Malting (now MaltEurope) has a state-of-the-art facility they opened up 150 miles north of me outside of Great Falls, Montana in 2005. It is in the heart of what is known as the "Golden Triangle" in Montana for grain growing. Nearly 1/3 of all grain for the US is grown in this region and is prime land for barley and wheat. I am very fortunate to have this facility nearby and they get a kick out of seeing where their malted grain goes. I can spec grain variety, particular farms, and check stock on growing season characteristics with a phone call or visit. It's very cool..... Aside from that, it is very cost prohibitive to malt your own barley in mass amounts. I believe a few companies (in Canada and Germany) were selling small-scale malting "facilities", but were EXTREMELY pricey.

Nope.....

I was just down in Louisville for the Bourbon Festival and stopped by Vendome to talk with Rob Sherman (I'm assuming that's who you dealt with). He had over 100 voicemails on his office phone, his cell phone was ringing every 5 minutes, and he said he has around 20-40 requests for quotes from small distillers almost weekly. Add that to the fact of the millions of $$ that the bourbon industry is pumping into their facilities right now and you may be able to see why Vendome is hard to get ahold of. Persistence pays off.... they've been very good to me.

Greetings! We have been on this board for awhile, participating where we could and asking questions as they come up to further this boards' content. We met some of you at this year's ADI Whiskey conference and hope to meet others as time progresses. We just changed our name from "Cold Smoke Distillery" to "RoughStock Distillery" this week due to a trademark issue we were not willing to deal with anymore. As soon as that name change is processed through the proper channels, our DSP and State permits will be active. We are located in beautiful Bozeman, Montana just an hour north of Yellowstone National Park in the southwestern corner of the state. We will be making our Montana Whiskey from start to finish. Our barley is grown in Montana, malted in Montana, and milled/mashed/fermented/distilled/aged in our Montana Distillery by us (just the two of us: Bryan & Kari). We are the first of our kind in the State, and are poised to hold the first legal Micro Distillery License the State has ever issued. We are also proud of the fact we will only be using locally grown and malted barley for our product. This is truly a regional classification that we think is a great representation of our strong agricultural and rural roots. So, in the coming months, we should be operational and slowly adding our barrel-aged whiskey inventory to our facility. Our tasting room is slated to be open this spring/early summer.... so stop by if you're in the area if nothing else to take a peek at our beautiful Vendome still and buy a t-shirt.

Oooh, ask me about trademarks and how you should fully protect your hard-earned work!!! We just submitted a name change for our distillery this week due to trademarking. We trademarked it, ran it through the proper channels and STILL got a cease and desist order due to "date of first use" with NO TRADEMARK from the other individual. So, for the most part, trademarking is a joke since anybody with a similar name or even romotely close association (in this case ANY beverage) will get you if they so choose even without a trademark. On the flip side, the federal trademark process is the only source you should be worried about.... individual States don't do their due diligence to ensure you are protected. So if you file a federal, you won't have to worry about it in any State nor will you have to keep checking the system to ensure nobody is trying to publish their mark that may be similar to yours. Our classification is 33, alcoholic beverages except beer. That does not mean, however, that a beer or wine can be named something similar. If it is a beverage, of any sort, you have the potential lawsuit for dillution/trademark/whatever. PM me, Odyssey, if you want a good recommendation for an excellent beverage and trademark lawyer in your area.

That would be a very handy leverage point..... thanks for the help!

Thanks, guys. Yes, my local authorities are using 2006 IBC code... rated for 240 gallons of ethanol (anything over 17%) for an H3 rated area with sprinklers. They also quoted from the 2003 NFPA 30, but seemed less interested in that. That just ain't gonna cut it. Next step... BARREL HOUSE! Although I wanted to avoid that step for a bit, I guess I'll need to start looking for an acceptable facility. I suppose a chat with my TTB agent will be in order for extending my bonded premesis...... How about other distillers... I KNOW YOU'RE OUT THERE and are storing far more than 240 gallons on site. How did you do it???? Or, should we just let sleeping dogs lie with that issue?

Has anyone run into the problem of ethanol storage on site? My local fire/building inspectors are being really strict as to how much they will allow (basically none). How have many of you storing/aging spirits worked around this? I've talked with a few distillers already, but most of the parameters seems to stem from the local authorities. Can anyone provide specific codes, regulations, or other special permits that showed how much storage was possible? According to them, I can distill but I just can't store it on site.... has to be a stand alone building with a bunch of other stipulations attached to it. Kind of makes that big hunk of copper in the form of a still a paperweight at the moment....

What, exactly, is keeping all of you from making your own base spirit? This is not an attack, it is merely a question for discussion.....

Good Luck! Best advice is to get a detailed business plan together.... take your start up capital number and times that by 3. Take your start-up time and times that by 2. That should give you a good cushion. Start filling your forms out now just for the sake of "practice". Where in the state are you located? Bryan

I see what you are getting at, but... How would you expect any distillery, let alone micros, to grow their own barley and malt it to fall under your definition? It would take 3000 to 100,000 acres of farm land to produce enough barley malt/corn/wheat/etc to operate in most cases (and all of the tractors and equipment associated with it).... then purchase/build an entire malting facility to handle that (millions of dollars). I don't see the correlation between that and growing your own herbs. Not even on the same level at all IMHO. Rheinheitsgebot comes to mind when mulling over this "grain to glass" classification in a way. FWIW: Copper Fox is malting their own barley. I'm sure there are others.

I'll echo what everyone else has said in that the TTB is very helpful, probably the most helpful out of all the government agencies I've had to deal with. They are a little overwhelmed right now since they gave the DSP agents wine permits as of lately.... so be patient if they don't get back to you right away.

I'll echo what Nick said as far as "it depends", but the short answer is "YES". You'll need to answer some questions and see what type of vessel fits your needs: Do you want to harvest your yeast? What product(s) are you fermenting? Is it necessary to separate these items (solids) at some point? What distillation technique will be used? What temperature do you *need* to ferment at? What is your budget? If you can narrow down your needs, then you may find that fermenting in an open-top non-jacketed Cyprus tank will work just fine.... OR you may feel the need for a fully jacketed and clad 316 stainless cylindro-conical vessel. It just really depends on individual need.....

Cold Smoke Distillery, Inc. supports this measure (our DSP is pending, should be licensed very soon) -Bryan & Kari Schultz, Owners

Go over to probrewer.com and use their search function... it's a valuable tool amongst those in the industry. Some are big brewers, some are homebrewers with dreams, but everyone is welcome membership or not. If you close down these discussions to members only, how do you entice others to join ADI? With more people on board to discuss suppliers, techniques, and other forms of business and ideas you can find a relative guideline to what others are doing. Nobody is going to come on these boards, or others like it, and magically start a distillery. It's just not that easy. If it were this would be a Starbucks forum. Heck, it might even scare some away that thought this would be something really cool to do but didn't realize the scale of things to come; thus saving them the time and money in the first place. Our distillery would fall into the category that was brought up by Coop concerning mashing, distilling, and bottling FWIW.... although we will not start production until next month.....

Thanks for the response.... Another subtopic to this, what has been a popular case size? 6 or 12 bottles? I've bounced that off of a few wholesalers and brokers and have got mixed responses.

I am curious if anyone has any recommendations for packaging suppliers? We are in the market for both labels and shipment boxes. Thanks!

Our profit/loss statement suggests we should have started another business altogether.... but it's worth it. Thank God for "supplemental income"!!

Liberty Mutual is who we went through. You can find a local representative through their website and go from there.