Skaalvenn

Further reading:

Quote

The hand sanitizer is compounded using only the following United States Pharmacopoeia (USP) grade ingredients in the preparation of the product (percentage in final product formulation) consistent with World Health Organization (WHO) recommendations:5

a.Alcohol (ethanol) (80%, volume/volume (v/v)) in an aqueous solution denatured according to Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau regulations in 27 CFR part 20; or Isopropyl Alcohol (75%, v/v) in an aqueous solution.6

b.Glycerol (1.45% v/v).7

c.Hydrogen peroxide (0.125% v/v). d.Sterile distilled water or boiled cold water.The compounder does not add other active or inactive ingredients. Different or additional ingredients may reduce the safety and effectiveness of the product.

2.The compounder pays particular attention to ensure the ethanol or isopropyl alcohol active ingredient is correct and the correct amount of the active ingredient is used.

3.The hand sanitizer is prepared under conditions routinely used by your facility to compound similar nonsterile drugs.8

4.The hand sanitizer is labeled consistent with the attached labeling in Appendix A (Labeling for Ethyl Alcohol Formulation) or Appendix B (Labeling for Isopropyl Alcohol Formulation).

Edit on 23March2020. The information below is out dated due to new guidance and guidelines that have recently changed. I am leaving this post up as current regulation loosening may be temporary. Best to check with the proper authorities for anyone reading this after the covid-19 outbreak passes.

I am not entirely familiar with USP certification or grade. Is what we make USP grade? I'm guessing not.

Ethanol, 80% vv denatured according to TTB.  If you do not have the checkbox for denaturing operations, you can not legally do this.

Mind "The compounder does not add other active or inactive ingredients", so a compounder (pharmacist) may not veer from the above recipe. Also keep in mind that only ethanol can be used which rules out using heads for this purpose.

I'm not trying to be a downer. I fully support this and will dedicate all available resources towards this if and only if we can legally do it.

On 3/14/2020 at 5:36 PM, DrDistillation said:

https://www.fda.gov/media/136118/download

Because of the public health emergency posed by COVID-19, FDA does not intend to take action against compounders that prepare alcohol-based hand sanitizers for consumer use for the duration of the public health emergency declared by the Secretary of HHS on January 31, 2020, provided the following circumstances are present:

It's only 9 pages that are easy to read.

 

I didn't even give thought to selling this when reading the thread and just thought it was for own personal/family use.

Interesting they give a recipe using 80% alcohol plus Glycerol (1.45% v/v),  Hydrogen peroxide (0.125% v/v), Sterile distilled water or boiled cold water.

Edit on 23March2020. The information below is out dated due to new guidance and guidelines that have recently changed. I am leaving this post up as current regulation loosening may be temporary. Best to check with the proper authorities for anyone reading this after the covid-19 outbreak passes.

Unless i'm reading this wrong, it does not say distillers can make hand sanitizer

Quote

Specifically, FDA does not intend to take action against pharmacists in State-licensed pharmacies or Federal facilities, for the duration of the public health emergency declared by the Secretary of HHS on January 31, 2020, for violations of sections 501(a)(2)(B), 502(f)(1), and 505 of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C. 351(a)(2)(B), 352(f)(1), and 355), or against outsourcing facilities for violations of sections 502(f)(1), 505, or 582 of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C. 352(f)(1), 355, and 360eee-1).

Disclaimer: I have not finished reading it yet.

Edit on 23March2020. The information below is out dated due to new guidance and guidelines that have recently changed. I am leaving this post up as current regulation loosening may be temporary. Best to check with the proper authorities for anyone reading this after the covid-19 outbreak passes.

Went over this already.

Hand sanitizer is regulated by the FDA as a OTC drug.  Unless you are licensed as a drug manufacturer and reseller you are treading in dangerous territory. 
https://www.fda.gov/drugs/information-drug-class/topical-antiseptic-products-hand-sanitizers-and-antibacterial-soaps

A few have said "we won't call it hand sanitizer."  Well, you can call it whatever you want, but if the feds and/or state say it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, they are the ones who determine (not you) if it's a duck.

If anyone knows for sure otherwise, please let me know.

FYI one of our suppliers for beverage alcohol is focusing their entire operation towards fulfilling orders for hand sanitizer manufacturers and all beverage alcohol is delayed 2 weeks.  There's the very real chance you could lose your business and 1 day later every Home Depot has 20 pallets of the stuff. 

You probably spent years and your entire life's savings opening a business in a highly regulated industry, don't risk it by treading into another highly regulated industry that you aren't licensed in.

2 hours ago, Odin said:

Thanks for sharing. Sorry if this post offended you or anyone else. That was not the goal, and maybe I should have refrained from posting this here. Not here to start a war and not here to explain myself. I'll dive into your questions anyhow, and give you explanations, but also want to make sure it does not become a "discussion". I remember how my views on copper can be perceived as antagonistic. We all make decisions based on the best info available and the feeling that something appeals to us or not. Head and heart. Same with me, when I decide to prioritize certain design specifics. So a one time answer, but no discusion. At least not from my part.

1. That is not my experience. Whenever I see what I call a traditional still with an agitator, it moves around fast, has filling levels well below 83% (nett/gross) and - if it has a sight glass - you can see the wash being thrown around so high that the sigh glass, that should be well above liquid levels is constantly washed dirty and clean with wash and grains. But if you found one that works, for you and that prevents vortex formation and violent gas bed intrusions, I am fine with that, of course.

2. Imagine X BTU being evaporated in a narrow boiler vs. a wider boiler. The boil-up will be higher in the narrow design. Yes, evaporation is the same, but the gas bed above the wider still will be more stable, less disturbed by a high boil-up. Just as with point 1 disturbance of the gas bed from which the riser or column draws is a negative. What we see as heads, hearts, tails, are components mixed into water/ethanol mix with higher or lower boiling points that correlate with higher and lower vapor speeds. The more stable the gas bed above the liquid is, the better the column can draw up gasses (via cooling by the dephlag or column or product cooler), without having to deal with interference and vapor speed variability (basically mini bursts of high/low air pressure due to aggressive mixing and/or shit flying through the gas bed from which the column draws). The more stable the gas bed, the bigger control over the smearing of heads and tails. The wider the variety in vapor speeds, the higher the (constant, additional) smearing of heads and tails will be. Since heads and tails smearing into hearts contribute to 80% of total flavor, we are not just talking hearts yield and toxicity, but also those vapor speeds (when variable) having constant (yet unmanaged) influences on flavor profile.

3. Glad to see you are happy with your steam boiler, mate. The reason why we offer an integrated (and insulated) solution, again, has to do with vapor speed and its management, since it is the key to reproducability of high quality spirits. In an uninsulated still, if you push the power there will only be a slight increase in vapor speeds. With insulation, and by integrating the heat source, we are able to turn power management directly into higher or lower vapor speeds. Since they result directly in smearing more or less heads and tails into hearts (thus affecting the flavor profile tremendously), I find the direct, integrated solution important. Again, if you are happy with your solution, there is no problem. Just explaining my thinking and reasoning here.

4. What I say is that a directly fired boiler can help create the Maillard Reaction and an indirect heating system does not. Research? Tons of it. If you find it important, may I advise you do your own? I can tell you from my own experience that it makes the trip so much more fun! Potatoes, boiled vs. fried, may be a good starting point. Or else please research how steaks are cooked to perfection.

5. Mixing does not have an influence on the rate of the boil. It has a big influence on filling levels and on the stability of the gas bed from which the column or riser draw, as specified above.

9. I do not have the habit of making wild claims. Research we do in our lab and research done by the Edinburgh University in Scotland clearly show that copper stills lead to copper particle contamination in the final drink. The less a still is used, the longer it is exposed to oxygen. The longer copper is exposed to oxygen, the more it oxidizes. Some called it copper oxidation, others call it rust, just as with iron. Research on Scottish copper potstills, that are in almost continuous use, show already high copper particle contamination in Scottish whiskies. Copper plays a potential essential part in some drinks. And in others it does not play a role at all. Gins, flavored vodka's for instance. The reason we have a copper waffle is that you can put it in or take it out, dependent if you need it. We put it at the very bottom of the column to prevent copper contamination as much as possible.

Skaalvenn, a lengthy answer, but I wanted to take the time and do the effort of explaining here what a table cannot do (without becoming unreadable). If you are interested in these topics of still design, please know that I post many articles on the iStill Blog that discuss the questions you had. For more reading: https://istillblog.com/. There is a search function that's pretty helpful!

Thanks, Odin.

 

I'm not offended in the slightest, I just read your posts and it sounds more and more like scientific buzz words being thrown around without anything to back them up than anything.  I have one of your older istill models, and it simply doesn't do what you always claimed they did.  I know you separated from the company that used to build them, but that brings up the question of your honesty in advertising prior to doing fabrication in house. 

1.  You just need thttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj9SL6A61qoo observe the mixing of a tank designed by someone who has some knowledge about mixer design, or who has watched a 2 minute video on mixing.  A properly designed system will not have any splashing, vortexing, or dead spots.  See below:

youtu.be/Sj9SL6A61qo

3. I understand the benefit of being able to dial in and maintain an amount of heat--a properly designed steam system can do just that. To say that electric is superior is just spreading misinformation and people have figured out how to control the precise amount of BTUs with steam long ago.  I will say that electric WAS beneficial when starting since I didn't have to buy an expensive steam boiler, but any change or move with electric required thousands of dollars spent to build more control panels, install more electrical lines, and add higher amp panels to handle the load.  Going to steam eliminated basically all those costs (in addition to the previously stated benefits).

4. I am quite familiar with cooking and what the maillard reaction is, to say that this doesn't happen in a different still is quite bogus.  In fact, I'd argue that the ability to distill on the grain results in the ability to have a product with more flavors than using direct elements.

9.  I did a brief google search and found nothing from the Edinburgh University and copper levels in spirits. Can you share the article for us?

2 hours ago, Odin said:

Twenty-one iStill innovations: features, benefits, and how they compare:

https://istillblog.com/2020/02/24/comparison-istill-vs-traditional-still/

Regards, Odin.

So, I read all your posts and just want to chime in with some observations and questions.

(numbers are in reference to the list of features you linked)

1. Square boiler. A properly placed agitator on a round tank will not vortex and will achieve ideal agitation. There's a reason round is the standard and it's not because engineers weren't clever enough to think of a square.

2. I believe wide or narrow have the same evaporation rates and that it's all about BTUs transferred (someone can correct me on this).

3. As someone who spent the first 4 years on electric, I'm so absolutely thrilled that I've moved to steam.  We are not a large operation by any means, but switching our main still to steam has saved us $700 per month in electricity bills, and our new steam powered vodka still should knock another $400-500 off.  Roughly $14,000 of revenue saved each year, and we have reduced heatup times from 100a electric by about 4 hours each day.  Our steam boiler will pay for itself within just a couple years, much sooner if we consider labor and increased production capacity.  I also don't have to worry about electrical components causing a multitude of issues.

4. You say your still creates maillard reaction, but a traditional still does not. Can you back that up with science?

5. As far as I understand it, mixing speed has no effect on the rate of boil.

9. You make multiple wild claims.  1. Copper contamination.  In a properly designed still, there should be no copper contamination.  You also claim that copper rusts?  Your stills have copper, so are you saying that iStills rust and poison customers spirits?

Ask the cooper for references, find people who use them years ago and still use them.

We prefer The Barrel Mill, they are local to us, make a good barrel, and I don't think I've ever heard a negative thing about them.

Depends what you're fermenting and how.

With rum we can basically fill a 350 gallon tank to about 340 gallons and not worry (as long as we don't turn the agitators on).

Hard wheat with a higher protein %? Need lots of head space even with a gallon of anti-foam (I'm exaggerating).  After the initial "flare up" a few hours after pitch it should settle down. Having the mash on the cool side will help as the yeast won't get as excited as they would in say a 90 degree pitch.

Thanks for being a great insurance agent, Aaron!

Aaron was one of the first calls I made when we were just thinking of starting up back in 2013 as I needed to know for my planning what the heck distillery insurance cost.  Was it going to be $100/mo or $10,000/mo to insure a small distillery?  He's been extremely helpful at every stage of our operation.

6 hours ago, WaywardB said:

We have a very similarly shaped bottle, also use a Mori 6 from TCW and have the exact same fill height issue.  I have been knocking around modification ideas for our unit but would love see the v3 @MichaelAtTCW is referring to first.  Prefer not to reinvent the wheel.

Same goes for above, feel free to give me a ring for a temporary solution until you get a new tray.

1 hour ago, ryanh said:

@Skaalvenn,

Ran across this thread and am a bit confused. I have the Mori 6 spout filler and have no problem finely adjusting the fill level. On each tube, there is the oval-shaped opening where liquid enters the bottle. Move the rubber cone and lock ring such that when the bottle is in position, the bottom of the outer metal sheath is where you want your fill level. The liquid stops filling when air can no longer exit the bottle.

 I do have to adjust the position of the rubber cone for different bottle types. I know I'm late to the thread, but I've heard the idea that the Mori filler is only adjustable by tray height from a few sources now. You don't need a fancy tray, just a hex wrench. Or maybe I'm missing something here.

I am very familiar with filling nozzles, their adjustment, and TTB standards of fill.  The Mori in it's standard configuration is only adjustable by moving the tray up and down, adjustment of the rubber cone on the Mori does not change fill heights. That I am 100% absolutely positive about as I have had plenty of communication with @MichaelAtTCW at TCW about this.  Sometimes the tray notches perfectly line up and a certain bottle design is within TTB tolerances (always measure by weight) and sometimes the only option is violation of fill by either too much or too little. There are some "hacks" you can use with vice grips or clamps, but it's not ideal and they are prone to move/drift out of adjustment through a run.  Sometimes you are in tolerance when your spirit is around 76 degrees in the summer, but then it's out of tolerance when the temperature drops (and vice versa).  Thankfully, the new design seems to work well, although I will be e-mailing Michael with the results I've found so far. It's not perfect, but I think a minor change will fix that.

I have 4 different fillers that we use for various products/projects at the distillery because for us, it's easier to typically dedicate one towards a certain product/bottle so that we don't have to spend time adjusting things back and forth or waiting for cleaning to be finished before proceeding with another bottling on busier production days.  Each filler is a different brand/model and they each have their own "personality" or quirks, they all do some thing better than the others, and they all have something I don't like about them.  I've been thinking about looking into prototyping and then making my own design of fillers someday.

1 hour ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Need the adjustable Mori tray - I can’t get it to work with my bottles.  Proper fill level is right between two settings.  Piramal Jersey.  Proper fill level isn’t in the neck, but the top of the large bore body.  Small differences in height are major ml differences.

Ding ding! The Jersey is that same bottle we use for our brand, and that fill height in the transition between the flat top and the neck bore is a real PITA to nail down.  We tried out the prototype tray with the Jerseys the other day and it was a complete success. We usually use the Criveller for the jerseys and it works OK. The downside to that filler is that it's pretty sensitive on the angle of the jersey bottle, and each bottle must be angled the exact same way otherwise incorrect fills happen. The rubber cones are also much softer on the Criveller and they are prone to catching on the bottle lip and cause the cone to not seal, you'll typically only catch it when a bottle starts gushing spirit out the top...it's very annoying.

Anyways, yesterday our criveller was giving me a headache on the Jersey bottles (not able to push the fillers up high enough to completely open the air port, leading to very slow fills), so I wheeled in the Mori and adjusted the tray.  After about 2-3 minutes of filling bottles, weighing them, and then making small adjustments we had it nailed down and it worked great. So e-mail Michael @ TCW and see if he can do you up. 

The one thing I did notice is that the Criveller filled the bottles at a noticeably faster rate. The mori gets close to the top and then fills very slowly whereas the Criveller raced all the way to the top.  I'm not sure if that is the fill head design or the angle of the bottles--have not investigated yet. The bottles are pretty vertical in the mori, and at an angle in the Criveller.

Feel free to google "Skaalvenn" and give me a call if you want help getting your current Mori to fill the jersey bottles correctly, I'm always here. You can text as well. -Tyson

2 hours ago, MichaelAtTCW said:

Thanks for the write-up @Skaalvenn

We're on v3 of the infinitely-adjustable tray prototype. I think this one's a winner in terms of being customizable and not too complicated to build (read: expensive) but feedback will be invaluable.

Not a problem. It looks pretty good So far. I already have an idea of how to make it slightly better (quick and cheap mod), but I'll save that for after we actually have a chance to use it. Thanks again!

1 hour ago, Beach Time said:

Dave, was in DC yesterday so I'm slow responding, I have a triclamp on the end now so I'm just eliminating another connection.  I have a straight pump connector for the discharge and will have to lengthen the discharge tube in order to mount the large valve on the side above the old quick connector.

Skaalvenn, here's the packing list, you need to save the 4 check valves off the manifold exit and mount them directly onto the spout inlets, the rest of the birds-nest gets tossed, the 1/2 tubing is for the pump inlet and dip tube.  I'm looking for a 2nd filler, what other fillers are you using?

2883N12 Barbed Precision Flow-Adjustment Valve for Food and Beverage, for 3/8" Tube ID 1 Each

2879N11 Food and Beverage Precision Flow-Adjustment Valve with Push-to-Connect Fitings for 1/8" ID and 1/4" OD Tube 4 Each

51735K26 High-Temperature/High-Purity Silicone Rubber Tubing Soft, 3/8" ID, 0.655" OD, 1 ft. Length 1 Each

5779K731 Push-to-Connect Tube Fitting for Air, Wye Adapter, 1/4" Stem OD x 1/4" Tube OD 2 Each

5779K264 Push-to-Connect Tube Fitting for Air, Wye Reducer, for 3/8" x 1/4" Tube OD 1 Each

5779K375 Push-to-Connect Tube Fitting for Air, Adapter, 3/8" Stem OD x 0.320" Tube ID 1 Each

51735K25 High-Temperature/High-Purity Silicone Rubber Tubing Soft, 5/16" ID, 0.592" OD, 1 ft. Length

51735K27 High-Temperature/High-Purity Silicone Rubber Tubing Soft, 1/2" ID, 0.8" OD, 5 ft. Length

2129T13 FEP Clear Tubing for Chemicals 3/16" ID, 1/4" OD, 10 ft. Length 1 Each

Thanks so much--that saves me some time!

Right now we have 2x 6 spout fillers, a Mori from TCW and a 6 spout from Criveller that we use regularly

https://store.tcwequipment.com/products/mori-filler

http://www.criveller.com/products/winery/bottling-solutions/manual-bottling-systems/fillers/

Both are good fillers, and both have their advantages and disadvantages, depending on the bottle shape and how you use it.  I have less headaches with the Mori, and Michael at TCW has been great to work with.  The only real headache with the TCW unit was that the fill height is only adjustable by the tray itself, and the Criveller is adjustable by both the tray and knobs on the nozzles (very important for accurate fills on SOME bottle shapes).  The tray on the Mori doesn't allow for fine enough adjustment for SOME bottles to meet the TTBs allowable fill tolerances.  HOWEVER,  I just received a prototype infinitely adjustable tray from TCW for me to test out, and I believe it will solve the aforementioned issue.  The Mori is also longer by about 10 inches, which does add up if you're running a few thousand bottles a day.

The Criveller unit was sent with a Flojet BEER pump, which is almost the same as the G70 except my brief research tells me that the internals may not be ethanol compatible.  We swapped that out immediately, so if anyone wants an unused beer pump, let me know.  The main headache we get from the Criveller unit is that the nozzle tips are very soft and prone to getting bunched up on the bottle neck, which can cause overfilling and overflows.  The second headache with the Criveller is the pneumatic float isn't strong enough to completely shut off the pump, so if you stop filling you'll want to manually shut off the air supply.   We never have those problem on the TCW unit.

Again, overall both units are good fillers. I can't say one is absolutely better than the other for everyone, but I'd lean towards the Mori from TCW.

9 hours ago, daveflintstone said:

Curious, why did you want to bypass the quick connect input?

I'll chime in and say I never liked the position, a line that right angles out the back would have been more ideal for us.

We still have one of these that I keep for smaller bottling projects and I think I'm going to try these modifications.

Quick question though. I didn't see that larger valve on McMaster, do you have a part number?

Thanks!!

I enjoy what I do, but if someone wants to make an offer on our distillery (partial or entire) I'm at least going to listen to what they have to offer.

So if anyone is seriously looking at purchasing a successful distillery and/or brand, give me a call =D

Not sure if I'm following this all correctly, but we just have our condensate plumbed into a receiving tank with a float switch that then pumps it back to the condensate tank next to the boiler?  Same unit that Silk posted an image of.

Our still is against a wall, and the tank is on the other side of the wall, so it's about as explosion proof as you can get.

8 hours ago, Odin said:

Some thoughts on continuous fermentation:

https://istillblog.com/2019/10/15/continuous-fermentation/

 

Regards, Odin.

I don't think it's quite that easy. Everything I have ever read about different methods of continuous fermentation is that controlling yeast mutations and infections eventually becomes a nightmare.

1 hour ago, Stumpy's said:

Do you happen to know what size screen/mesh you are running? We picked up a used centri sifter and it has been working well. We are trying to get more solids out of the effluent. We were screen with a 1/32" perforated screen and had too many solids. We have since put a 40 mesh screen (0.0165") screen inside the 1/32" and it takes out many more solids but we do get into the situation where we blind over the screen once and awhile and our grain becomes fairly watery. 

Just looked at the parts list, it states : 140MESH  0.004" SLOTS, 0.030" WIRES

No need to post a video because there's really nothing to see. Google kason centric sifter and that's it. When it's running there's no noise, none. All you see is grain particles falling out of the outlet because everything is self contained. The only visible moving part is the fan on the motor.

We have a liquid/solid separator from Kason.  Price was under $20k shipped and with a custom stainless steel stand.  Works like a dream and it's DEAD silent.  Pump in spent mash on one side and dry grain comes out the other side.  Ok it's not DRY but it's about as close as you could get without applying heat.

Word of advice, don't let them arrange the freight as they wanted almost $1,000 for shipping when our logistics guy was about $250 including insurance.

Just posting for a follow up on cupcake spirit.  We ran it through a 4 plate column and so far it's one of the worst tasting and smelling things I've distilled.  Maybe it will clean up to a vodka? Not sure. I'd imagine the butter and all the other flavors just don't distill well.

Sometimes the art of the industry is in the failures.

1 hour ago, Southernhighlander said:

Baffles are not typically needed in these tuns

These mash tuns are specifically built for corn and other grain in mashes. My customers do not generally have any mixing issues with them.  In fact we have several customers that have used our mash tuns for years and then purchased larger ones from us.  One customer purchased 3, the last one being 2,500 gallon total capacity.   His distilling capacity is over 7,000 gallons of mash per day using my stills.  All of that mash is done in my mash tuns   He is on the forum though I have never seen him post.  He has been running my mash tuns for almost 8 years with no mixing issues. 

You are doing something very different.     You will always have temperature differences in different areas of the tun  from the bottom to the top and from the center to the outside because the turn over is never instant and other factors. and you will probably allways get chunks of cupcakes because they come in chunks.  However that doesn't matter because I am here to help you resolve any issues that you may have.  Does your tun have the cooling coil?

  I do apologize if you received a short thermometer by mistake.   We are glad to send you a thermometer with a long probe with a thermowell at no charge for shipping or the parts.  As far as the mixing issues with your cupcake mash I am glad to help you solve that issue at no charge.  Flipping your lower agitator paddle should be all that you need to do however if that does not work for you I am glad to send you  paddles that will give you better mixing, or a baffle.  Anyone of these changes will prevent whirlpooling and they won't cost you anything.

We have always taken care of any issues that our customers have let us know about and we will always do so.   The baffles in our current tuns are removable and there is no possibility of whirlpooling no matter what you are mashing.   The baffles are not really needed for grain in mashes like corn and rye however they will improve the mixing of thinner mashes or mashes that start out with chunks like cup cakes.

Thanks.  This cupcake thing is probably a one time deal...unless it turns out amazing. The color contrast with the butter on top just does a very good job of highlighting what is happening with the motion of the fluid. I'll send you a PM.

Silk, feel free to give me a call. Google Skaalvenn and it will give you the number.  I've never made cupcake spirits before, but I can say it is by far the best smelling thing I have ever done in the distillery and I'll be sad when that aroma is no longer here.

Here's the video of the cupcakes mixing, and all the butter.  You can see some of the chunks that wouldn't break up spinning aroud at the top, and they stay in the same orbit instead of being sucked down by the blades.

Man...that's a lot of butter.

7 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

Skaalvan,

Most corn mash tuns have vertical agitators because of the very high viscosity of corn mash, large agitator paddles and very low rpms are typically used.   Generally whirlpooling does not cause a problem in this type of mash tun because of the low RPMs and high viscosity of grain in mashes. Angled agitators that must have smaller agitator paddles to fit in the same size vessel do not mix highly viscus corn mash very well because of the smaller paddles.  They do work well for less viscous mashes. High RPM agitators with small boat impellers really suck with most grain in mashes, but work incredibly well with very low viscosity mashes as long as they are not installed vertically.  

If you are running less viscous mashes and whirlpooling occurs there are 2 simple ways to solve the whirlpooling issue. 

Just flip your lower paddle and that should stop your issues.  If that does not give you the type of mixing that you want then email me and I will send you a baffle that will.  We are here to solve any equipment problems that anyone may have in this industry.

Out of the hundreds of corn mash tuns that we have out there we have only had 2 complaints concerning our mash tun agitators not mixing properly and we solved those issues immediately.

We currently put baffles in all of our mash tuns except for our lauter tuns.   Our baffles make it impossible for whirlpooling to occur.

The best design changes that we have made over the many years that we have been designing distillery equipment were made because of customer feedback and from seeing the deficiencies in the equipment of others.  This forum has been a great place to see and learn from the equipment problems that people have.  If you have an equipment issue with our equipment or any distillery equipment just call or email us and we will solve your problems.  417-778-6100  paul@distillery-equipment.com

Thanks. I do not run corn. I do pretty thick wheat mashes, and it does turn over better as the thickness goes up, but it still doesn't mix properly (uneven temps).  You'll typically see vertical, center shaft mixers on very high viscosity liquids that have a centipoise equal to or exceeding toothpaste, as that type of mixer works well for those viscosity.  I was also told by you that baffles are not needed...

This is a video of what I'm currently working on, which shows the issue very well. I'm currently fermenting 700lbs of cupcakes (you heard that right). The yellow on the top is butter (which I'm curious how it's going to distill) but it clearly shows the lack of actual mixing despite rapid rotation...it's just stirring.

15 hours ago, starcat said:

This matter is being overcomplicated and over thought. A properly installed thermowell with a properly installed probe and TEMP readout will work correctly. Its done in Commercial brewing all the time. There are also simple calcs for volumes of grain, and strike water at a given temperature that will result in you " hitting the target." Open, unprotected probes in a mash vessel are asking for trouble. If the mash is not properly stirred, its going to stratify. There would seem to be this tendency at large for a major lot of cut corner reinvention of the wheel on fronts that are already well tried, tested, and not that costly to do correctly.

I see a lot of tanks where the mixer is not designed properly. We have a center mount, vertical mixer, and the temperature of the water is Substantially different in the center of the tank than it is near the edges due to the water spinning, not mixing.  It gets a little better when the grain is added, but we have to occasionally reverse the agitator to actually mix the product...it's frustrating because a simple offset vertical mixer or a properly angled mixer would 100% alleviate the problem.

We take a temperature probe reading only after reversing our mixer (to cause a lot of agitation), and that number is substantially different enough from what the initial "spinning" readout is. We use a calculator and can usually hit our cook temp within a degree after grain-in, some enzymes are very sensitive to temperature/pH, so accurate mixing and readings are crucial to a distillery having either success or complete fauilure.

11 hours ago, Lorenzo said:

Hi Skaalvenn, Starcat

 

Great info, Skaa, what is the system that you are using, are all the components from same company, I have been shopping California Air, Chicago Pneumatic and a few others, cost is up there and I'm pricing a 18 CFm @175psi system.

Castair is the compressor. No idea on the rest. I believe I'm 45cfm @ 175psi.  I have an automated capsuling and labeling machine that requires 16CFM.