Skaalvenn

Our air compressor has a belt guard aftercooler, an auto-drain solonoid, and then a coalescing filter before the refrigerated air dryer.

The cooling from the aftercooler works pretty well, brings air temps off the compressor from about 170 degrees down to just over room temperature (hot air holds more moisture), so a lot of the moisture falls out and condenses inside the tank where it's removed by the auto-drain.  The coalescing does get SOME of the water out of the air supply, but on humid days the refrigerated dryer has a fairly steady trickle of water.  After that dryer we run through another coalescing, moisture traps before each tool hookup, and then another coalescing at each tool.  I never get any signs of moisture beyond the refrigerated air dryer.  FWIW we do not have our air supply come in contact with the spirit.

The entire system cost quite a bit, but well worth it as our air supply is the least of my worries these days.  I can run our bottling line, a large AODD pump, and an air mixer all at the same time with plenty of air pressure and volume to spare.

How far does the probe go into the tank? I've got a still/mashtun and the probe is too short so the port gets full of grain resulting in unreliable readings.

I've got a batch fermenting in it right now. Digital handheld probes said 93 degrees while the tank thermometer said 80.

4 hours ago, et1883 said:

The MEB looks like the Italian Ferronex (sp?) FX-10, sold in the USA as "Mini Line 1" from Criveller in California (and supported by phone from Toronto by Criveller Canada).  Their manual is out of date, but the premise is that it can do 600 bottles/hour.  We are calibrating ours at the moment.

Hmm it seems like you learn something every day.  Thanks!!

http://www.ferrinoxsnc.it/en/labelling-machines/fx-10

https://store.tcwequipment.com/products/fx-10-labeler?taxon_id=14

It doesn't look like they've changed too much. At $6,500 for a new one, maybe I should raise my price

Bump. Race labeler is sold.

feel free to make an offer on what’s left.

Do you have a picture of the bottle? I have a semi automatic labeler for sale, you’ll see it in the classifieds. For a pedestal base there’s not a lot of options in the entry level as the primera and race labelers (and most others in that price range) rely on a round cylinder with no taper or other shapes.

I'm very interested.  I'm currently insured by Tricare with the military, but as I begin to think about transitioning out of wearing a uniform I need to have something to cover me for when I break.  I'd also like to have better options for my employees as we firmly believe that getting the best employees means providing the the best work environment and benefits which they can find.

5 hours ago, Roger said:

I have been in a beverage NGS production facility, and have seen it in use. It is NOT prohibited by FDA and TTB. Meanwhile the FDA is trying to crack down on the use due to the distillers grains being sold into the animal feed industry and its potential ability to create immunity to various strains. Everyone knows this. 

The only thing I always wondered is: Are the Bulk whiskey producers doing it as well ?

https://www.iatp.org/blog/201204/ethanol-antibiotics-and-what-we-don’t-know

I looked into this a little more (briefly) and it appears you are right (albeit, exaggerating). 

"In 2010 the FDA collected samples from 46 dried distillers grains sources--18 imported, 28 domestic.
4 of the 46 samples tested positive. 3 domestic, 1 foreign.
0.16PPM Virginiamycin M1 on a dry weight basis in one sample
0.58 ppm Erythromycin was detected at ~ on a dry weight basis in another sample.
The final positive domestic sample contained virginiamycin M1 at ~0.15 ppm on a dry weight basis and penicillin G at ~0.24 ppm on a dry weight basis. Although the amount of penicillin found (0.24 ppm) is lower than the LOQ for penicillin, the laboratory was able to accurately quantify this sample for penicillin below 1 ppm.

Source: https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/biological-chemical-and-physical-contaminants-animal-food/report-fy-2010-nationwide-survey-distillers-products-antibiotic-residues

At the same time, the FDA reports that many ethanol distillers are(were?) looking for alternatives to antibiotics.  All this data is pretty old, it would be nice to see some further, unbiased studies. In my brief search I also found a few articles suggesting that they had tested samples and the antibiotics found were not biologically active. However, I did not find a FDA article backing this up.

5 hours ago, Roger said:

One last thing on this, I actually put "no antibiotics used" on the back of one of our vodka COLA's and it was rejected by the TTB as being "disparaging to other producers products".  Not to be confused with: "You can't use antibiotics in beverage alcohol".

Large producers do not typically clean their fermenters the way small distillers can and do. It is much easier for them to just add an antibiotic dose to each new batch, and that kills everything but the yeast. You can't buy NGS at 40 cents a bottle, if they have a person in the fermenter cleaning it with PBW every time. 

Keep in mind that it is not "disparaging" if it isn't considered a "bad thing". It is just a "thing" that appears to be brushed over. Some distillers use Hop extract as a natural alternative. I believe if you are selling the distillers grain into Europe, it can not contain the antibiotics that are acceptable here in the US. 

Your COLA was likely rejected because the likeliness of antibiotics being present in distilled products is slim to none,  and your label was an attempt to convince consumers that antibiotics are common in everyone else's spirits but yours.

I'd imagine the TTB would give you the same rejection if you put "LEAD FREE" on your label.

26 minutes ago, Roger said:

We also do not use antibiotics, which are standard in the bulk NGS industry.

Can you provide a source on that? I was unsuccessful in googling anything where antibiotics were used in the production of neutral spirits (other than lowering of the pH to prevent bacterial growth in the short ~30 hours of ferment).  Really the only thing that popped up was:

adiforums.com/topic/8274-gns-quality/

On 4/30/2017 at 9:38 AM, Roger said:

Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could buy some piece of magic equipment that would make commercial bio-ethanol into something other than what it is, but unfortunately it's just not so.  it will always be warmed up fuel, made from mash more than likely treated with mass doses of antibiotics, delivered to your door with the faint odor of a PVC Tote.

Actually that would be a pretty good Craft brand name: TOTE-VODKA

"I love the smell of plastic in my Martini"

Prost

If you're going to trash an entire industry, please back it up with facts.

1 hour ago, admiralty said:

Do you know if the semi-auto will do a slight taper on a bottle?  My label is a similar size to yours and the glass is barely out of cylinder, but enough to be a headache apparently

Possibly, it all depends on the label dimensions.

If you'd like to send me a small roll of labels and a couple bottles I can test it out for you, send you the video, and the bottles back.

Cleaning out the distillery and looking to move some stuff.  I can be contacted by direct message, or if you google "Skaalvenn Distillery" you can call that number.

RACE LABELER IS SOLD!  The first item is a Race RL1 labeler.  It's a good hand labeler that will put the label on straight every single time. Race labelers are extremely well designed, built, and their customer service is amazing.  These new are about $1600, selling this one for $950 plus shipping.

https://www.racelabel.com/rl-1/

RACE LABELER IS SOLD!  

RACE LABELER IS SOLD!  

Next is a MEB semi-automatic labeler.  This company is either out of business, or has been bought out.  However, the thing is built like a friggin tank and should last for many more years. We had the rubber drive rollers re-rubbered a couple years ago (cost us about $400).  We have had some trouble with getting this to apply labels straight, but we have an extremely large label measuring 4.25" high x 9.00" long. We also could never get the auto-winder to work right on the waste paper reel, but I think that was also due to our large label (with the long label it means any labeler we have must operate completely straight or else issues happen).  We have used this for labeling around 20,000 bottles, we since upgraded to a fully-automatic line.  The operation of this is simple, stick the bottle in the rollers and it hits a microswitch which starts the action.  It is capable of doing a front/back label, but I have never used it for that.  Feel free to mail us some labels and a few bottles and we'll send video if it in operation.  Price is $1500 FOB 55428, weight is about 140 pounds so it has to go freight.

Next is a Schneider Electric 2510KR2H explosion proof switch that we ended up not using. It's brand new, has never been installed. Retails on Amazon for $385, selling for $300 shipped to lower 48

https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/product/2510KR2H/manual-switch---nema-7%269---3p---toggle-operated---no-indicator---600vac-/

Finally we have an unused 30" .22 micron cartridge filter. These are $90 from St Pats.  Open to offers.

7 hours ago, richard1 said:

Two things, your compressor needs to be of screw oil free type and with respect to filters they need to be multi stage coalescers where you aim for oil and particle removal.

Any reason a traditional piston compressor wouldn’t work? We have our compressor with a belt guard aftercooler and auto drain, that gets most of the water out. Outside the compressor is a coalescing filter, a refrigerated air drier, and then a water drop and another coalescing filter at each machine.

the coalescing at the compressor has needed to be emptied three times in 60 hours of run time, I don’t even bother having the refrigerated dryer drain to a container because there’s so little moisture at that stage, and I haven’t seen a drop at any of the tool hookups.  Granted, half of the run time has been during cold winter, but it has been a very humid summer.

We are looking at getting an automated bottle filler with air rinser, so that’s why I wonder why you say it needs to be a screw compressor.

thanks

Probably so you don't get a ton of mash burned onto the steam jacket.  Most of the stills I see are built with the idea in mind that scrubbing burned on mash is both pleasant and profitable for the distiller.  I understand wanting maximum jacket surface area for heat up, but I'd sacrifice 10 minutes of longer heatup time if it meant I'd spend 15 minutes less time cleaning.

Huffy2k is 100% right as well, I have pictures of a nice vendome still where the 1.25" shaft bent and send the mixing blade through the steam jacket.  You can run the agitator while draining, but you must be sure that it's turning slow enough to not self destruct when the liquid level gets low.

21 minutes ago, bluestar said:

I am not sure what we are debating, now.

I'm not entirely sure either.

We use the Snap to get us to bottling proof, as its far faster. We then verify it's reading is accurate by approved TTB methods and equipment, and proceed to bottle. We have not seen any sway in the reading from the Snap.   What's your issue with this?

*sigh*

I'll just quote myself here.

On 7/31/2019 at 2:45 PM, Skaalvenn said:

When we bought it we also purchased 3 vodka bottles from 3 different big producers.  We recorded the indicated proof on the bottle itself.  We use those to test it's calibration (along with following the owners manual) and have not noticed any inaccuracy beyond a couple hundredth of a proof.  We also receive GNS from a supplier who has a full lab, and our test is always inline with their readings (again, within 1-3 hundredths).

We do use certified and calibrated glass hydrometers per the regulations, and it's laughable to think that they are TTB certified and a very precise digital meter is not. Maybe someday we'll be able to throw those antiques into the junk drawer...

I will agree with you that some people don't understand how to properly proof a spirit, heck, I've taken calls from distillers having trouble mashing and and find out they don't even own a thermometer...

2 hours ago, bluestar said:

Not sure what your point is here @Skaalvenn, or if you are just being humorous? Really, if you use the glass hydrometers per the gauging manual, you can get to the required accuracy, but it is slow and requires precise lab methods, like measuring temperatures after full equilibration of equipment to 0.1 deg C accuracy. Many people purchase the regulation calibrated hydrometers for $250 or so, but don't invest the even greater amount required for a precision calibrated thermometer or a temperature controlled bath, and so can not meet the TTB requirement. And setting up the baths for temperature equilibrium, etc., means (at least for me) that a single measurement can easily take a half hour (remember, you have to repeat the measurement at least 3 times to get the required statistical averaging). Hence, why we eventually purchased one of the approved digital densitometers, and now know for sure that the Snap is not accurate enough.

My point was that I know how to proof spirits, I know the procedures, I know what the equipment costs, and that it takes a long time to do correctly.  It's not rocket science, it's the elementary (and required) part of our industry that we should all know how to do, and do very well.

I'm also saying, that I test it against my Snap51 multiple times per week, I test it against known samples, and my Snap51 is always dead on.  Would I trust it if I were proofed to 79.99 proof on an 80.00 proof label? Absolutely not, would I trust it saying 79.90 proof on an 80 proof label? Absolutely.

57 minutes ago, bluestar said:

Actually, it is not as laughable as you think. If you actually used the precision and calibrated glass hydrometers correctly, as described by TTB gauging manual, a skilled user will meet the requirements. But most people just don't have the necessary skill or patience. On the other hand, the Snap 51 can NOT meet requirement. Even if you checked a Snap 51 against something more accurate, and you found it was accurate enough, that would be accidental, and no way to assure it would not drift out of accuracy. While that digital meter may seem to have enough PRECISION, it does not have the required ACCURACY.

I guess I have no idea what I'm doing then. /s

It's likely fully converted. Any wheat particles will still have starch and will turn black. Trust your specific gravity.

3 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

I feel like there is enough drift on the handheld Anton Paar units that you need to recalibrate with distilled water every day.

Wondering if anyone else has had the same experience.  We use the DMA35 for quick, intermediate measurements, and we use Alcodens for all proofing/dilution calculations.  More than once I've gone through proofing (which may extend more  than a day) with Alcodens only to realize the DMA35 was off by a few tenths.  Alcodens calcs are always laser precise, the density meter, not so much.  Nearly every time when the measured proof had a deviation from the calc, it's just that the meter was off.

Glass rules.

If you are working with sugar additions (honey),  start honing your lab skills, a digital density meter is not going to save you any material amount of time.

We have had a Snap51 for the past year and it's always accurate and repeatable. We do not use it for fermentation, low wines or anything where it could become coated/contaminated/etc.

When we bought it we also purchased 3 vodka bottles from 3 different big producers.  We recorded the indicated proof on the bottle itself.  We use those to test it's calibration (along with following the owners manual) and have not noticed any inaccuracy beyond a couple hundredth of a proof.  We also receive GNS from a supplier who has a full lab, and our test is always inline with their readings (again, within 1-3 hundredths).

We do use certified and calibrated glass hydrometers per the regulations, and it's laughable to think that they are TTB certified and a very precise digital meter is not. Maybe someday we'll be able to throw those antiques into the junk drawer...

DIY epoxy will probably fail. Consumer epoxy is just "OK" for a consumer garage, but they can and do fail with the light duty of a home garage. Old concrete that isn't ground, cleaned, and etched properly and overlaid with a consumer epoxy will most likely not endure 3,000lb pallets rolling across it for very long.

We had our production floor professionally ground, cracks filled, ground again, and sealed. It's not a gloss finish, but it's pretty darn smooth and makes cleanup with a squeegee a dream.  We strip and reseal it every year (mostly because I don't like scuffs in the floor) which is inexpensive.

I think the price of the work was about $3-4 per square foot, and after watching the professionals and their machines (much better than what you can rent), it's something I absolutely would not want to attempt myself. I'm pretty sure they took 1/4" or more of concrete off the higher spots, which would take years of work with one of the Home Depot rental grinders.

It all depends what your budget is. There are good options from $1k to $50k

For around $1-2k you can get a Primera AP362, which is a rock solid labeler, but it does have it's limitations.

1 hour ago, thomasd said:

Skaalvenn. 

Can you let us know how the centrifugal system works out. I’m interested in something similar. 

Will do. It's not scheduled to arrive for about a month.

We've thrown in the towel on handling wet distillers grain and have now ordered a centrifugal  dewatering machine. Trying different methods has been a waste of time. Trying to find a reliable farmer to take liquid has been a huge frustration. We want to expand into new markets, and having a true solution to dewatering is the only way to do it.

It makes me queasy knowing how much I'm spending just to make it easier to get rid of my waste.

24 minutes ago, adamOVD said:

I put a T and a valve on the bottom of whatever im pumping from and hook up a hose to the valve. Then close the valve from where i'm pumping as I open the water side so i can push the grain in the hose through with water, and only put water on the floor.

That's a pretty dang good idea!

3 hours ago, Roger said:

We have used our centrifugal pump exclusively for years running : bourbon mash, wheat mash, malt mash, grape concentrate, molasses......, from tun to fermenters, through tube and shell exchangers, from fermenter to stills, etc....  Temps from 50f to 185f. 

So far are maintenance and repair has amounted to: zero.

The only reason I could see for running an impeller is for the self priming aspect. 

Same, except we've also used it for moving boiling water and freshly distilled mash.  The only thing I've done in about 4 years is replacing the two o-rings for a cost of about $2.

We got the jabsco as part of a package and I was excited to get it as I had wanted a FIP for a while since they can completely pump out a tank and they make cleaning the line of mash very easy.  At the end of pumpout bring the pump speed way down low, shut the valve and pop the triclamp and almost every bit of mash stays in the hose and not onto the floor. Begin filling the hose with water and just pump it all out.

With the centrifugal there was always a gallon or two in the lines. Double valving at the fermenter helped, but you still always put the liquid between the two onto the floor.

I've had friends running their USFIP hard, daily, and it seems an impeller each year is about the norm.

5 hours ago, kelbor said:

So....no on all three tips basically.

Ok. Sell it then for cheap. Or, at least try doing something what works for someone else in the real world. Your choice. 

(The tips I gave above and use came from the guys at Morewine when I was buying my third impeller and asking WTF is happening- and they worked for me...even though the pump runs both ways and goes to 10 on the dial)

So just to be clear, I shouldn't reverse the jabsco, I shouldn't run it anywhere near full speed (20gpm is already painfully slow), I shouldn't pump hot liquids, and I should spray lubricant in it daily?  If that's how it should be operated, then I have no use for it.

Nobody I know with a USFip has to do this kind of babying with their pump.