Potassium Metabisulphite

[lswanson1]

I know most wine makers put this as an antioxidant but you should never distill product with sulphites from what I understand correct? The sulphur smell would taint the distillate?

[Charles@AEppelTreow]

An antioxidant, antibacterial, metabolic intermediate binder and 3 other jobs, I believe. Mostly pointless to a distiller. Anything oak aged is going to be oxidized - on purpose. Spirits are generally beyond the need for microbial control. And distillers mostly use their mash and wash quickly, before it needs protection from sulfite.

That said, sulfite is allowed in wine, and anything approved for use in wine is allowed for wine distilling material. Plus, there's a second list of things allowed in distilling material made in a bonded winery in addition to the approved-for-wine list.

If you received wine from a bonded winery, and the sulfite level was really high, you can knock it down with hydrogen peroxide. I find that in the 30-70ppm range, it simply blows off during distillation - mostly in the heads fraction.

Sulfite has a a 'burnt match' like pungency. It's completely different from reduced sulfur (H2S and its kin).

I don't think you can add sulfites to a spirit for self stability. Even with a formula. But the TTB ALFD would be the definitive resource.

[Mike Fiore]

Is our main concern on free SO2 or total SO2? One of the thoughts that a wine maker has when he is stuck with bad wine is to distill it. If I am involved in this operation, the first thing I do is do an SO2 analysis. It was poor judgement on SO2 for the most part that made this wine go bad. However I have seen cases that you might only have low free SO2 which yields hardly any SO2 molucume and then the same wine it might have 3 or 4PPM bounded or total SO2. Would beroxcide help eliminate total SO2 or the bound SO2?

-Mike Fiore

[cannibalpeas]

If you received wine from a bonded winery, and the sulfite level was really high, you can knock it down with hydrogen peroxide. I find that in the 30-70ppm range, it simply blows off during distillation - mostly in the heads fraction.

Thanks for the info Charles. I have seen this mentioned multiple places, but have been a bit afraid of pulling the trigger on the large quantity of really good cider I inherited from NH. It began to go ML, so they dosed the living daylights out of it with SO2. I am having some success simply aerating the low wines between first and second distillation, but of course I lose some amount of ethanol and multiple other compounds.

Gwydion Stone mentioned the use of Hydrogen Peroxide correction in this thread:

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1926&st=0&p=10816&hl=sulfur&fromsearch=1entry10816

With a recommended dosage of 300ml 3% solution to 60 gals wine. Can you speak to this dosage? Are there any other major factors to consider when using H2O2 for sulfite correction?

Thanks,

-Joel

[Charles@AEppelTreow]

I use the calculation method out of Winery Technology & Operations (Margalit, 1996), which is based on amount of bound sulfite. The dose above sounds like it's in the ballpack - but it depends on how sulfite is actually there.

[cannibalpeas]

Great, thanks! I don't have that volume yet and none of mine specifically mention remediation. I'll check that out.

[FrEwing]

Oxidation of mascerated based liqueurs is an interest of mine. I don't distill - I mascerate. I've experienced oxidation in soft fruit based liqueurs sometimes fairly quickly within a year final filtering. The type of fruit is usually in Plum or Plumcot/pluot mixes. As the liqueur ages (in glass) it tends to experience low levels of oxidation. This results in a "raisin" type flavor. I am looking for a solution to this and would appreciate any ideas or proven solutions.

[Charles@AEppelTreow]

From the wine journals, I gather that oxidation prevention in the bottle is threefold. Minimize the oxygen in the bottle after filling. Slow the rate of new oxygen diffusing into the bottle (through the closure) and scavenge any oxygen that gets in via chemical reaction.

(Caveat, I'm now seeing articles about going too far in the reducing direction - trace O2 is important for aging - in wines.)

Working backwards:

Wineries mostly use sulfite for scavenging. Maybe a distillery could use ascorbic acid? It's fragile stuff - even if it's in the fruit, it might not survive crushing and macerating. The Vitamin C in cider apples, or Calville Blanc d'Hiver doesn't survive pressing, for instance.

What kind of closure do you use? Bar top? Short or long corks? Micro agglomerated? Natural cork? Synthetic. ROPP? Go back through issues of Practical Winery & Vineyard - there are multiple articles talking about O2 diffusion rates for different closures. The only one I haven't seen listed is bartop/t-cork. i shudder to think how leaky they might be. The lowest is usually ROPP. The second lowest is the double-disk agglomerated cork. Those have other failure modes, though, so they are generally considered appropriate for young wines. (I haven't had issues with though out to the decade time frame)

Do you strip oxygen out of the product with a N2 sparge? Do you do an inert purge of the bottle before fill? After fill?

[Valerii_Fedorov]

As for wine, indeed, oxigen is unwanted here, but as i right understood FrEwing quite the contrary would like to feel in smell and taste of his products effect of smooth and controllable oxidation when ageing either in oak cask or in bottle take place. Oxidation one of most important proccesses in munufaсturing strong alkoholic drinks as matured such as, for instance wine brandy as well as vodka.

[fldme]

If it has sulfites, stay away from it.

[FrEwing]

For all, sorry I hadn't replied to any of the above. I've been totally involved with getting licensed and my startup. I'm almost here and now waiting for my formulas to be reviewed and then my labels. The oxidation I have been speaking about is not in bottled product. It's in product that has been sitting in gallon jugs aging or waiting to be drunk. This was stuff I've made in very small batches over the years for personal consumption. Over time I expected some oxidation. Now, I'm concerned about production quantities and have recently been doing research to solve the problem once and for all in those flavors (particularly soft fruits) that I will consider making as we progress. I am considering Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) and other natural additives. thanks for your help