Penrock Distillery Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Hi All I'm thinking of making a malt whiskey. Since I'm in England and not Scotland I'm not bound by tradition and can blaze my own trail. My question is what are the advantages and disadvantages of fermenting and distilling on and off the grain with regards to the final spirit ? Cheers Sim ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silk City Distillers Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Stateside, we distill on the grain because we have little other choice when working with grains like corn and rye, which do not lauter easily. Malt is an interesting one, because there is a choice. Personally, I think on-grain processes result in more grain character carrying through to the distillate (probably obvious right?). If you are planning on using distinctive malts (roasts, etc), there may be additional benefit in enhancing some of those flavors on grain. I hesitate to call off grain cleaner, but that’s the direction my head is leaning (less-characteristic). The other big factor off grain is whether you are distilling with yeast. Again, keep in mind you don’t have a choice on-grain, the yeast always comes for the ride. For off-grain, this is a pretty big impact, and you can vary how much yeast you pull over to the still. Off grain, no yeast, is going to be fairly mild/non-distinctive, but may yield a more palatable young whiskey. A lot of folks talk about negative impacts due to tannin from the husk, personally I’ve never found that to be the case. I’ve distilled malt mash bills both ways (we have a brewery next door), and it’s not the biggest standout. Given I’ve hammer milled malt to flour, if there was going to be a real negative impact, I’d notice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrock Distillery Posted December 10, 2021 Author Share Posted December 10, 2021 Thanks for the reply !! I cut my teeth in a craft TN whiskey distillery in Nashville before moving back home to England so I'm aware that the US distilleries can do things a bit differently as not bound by tradition like the Scottish guys, which is why I asked the question here 🙂 I'm looking for as much flavour as I can get in my spirits and was leaning in that direction, perhaps going "grain in" is the way I should go since being in England, I'm also not bound by Scotch tradition either. I was just concerned there could be a negative affect. Cheers Sim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel2jays Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 On 12/11/2021 at 5:54 AM, Penrock Distillery said: Thanks for the reply !! I cut my teeth in a craft TN whiskey distillery in Nashville before moving back home to England so I'm aware that the US distilleries can do things a bit differently as not bound by tradition like the Scottish guys, which is why I asked the question here 🙂 I'm looking for as much flavour as I can get in my spirits and was leaning in that direction, perhaps going "grain in" is the way I should go since being in England, I'm also not bound by Scotch tradition either. I was just concerned there could be a negative affect. Cheers Sim Following this thread with interest. Like yours in England, Australia's legal definitions around whisky leave plenty of scope for innovation. Would be great if you come back and update this thread with your R&D results! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrock Distillery Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 Its going to be a while before I can look at doing a single malt as I have a fair bit of "bourbon" to make once I have my rum ran for some cash flow. I'm thinking ahead with this post. I will report back once I start the R&D. Perhaps you can do the same ? Regards Sim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAndy Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 My .02$ : I've made malt whiskey both ways, and I much prefer malt whiskey made off the grain. The whiskey ends up with clearer, brighter flavor with more fruity and floral notes. The malt whiskey distilled on the grain is muddier and funkier by comparison. If your equipment requires you to make it on the grain then so be it, but if you have a choice I think it makes a better product from clear wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silk City Distillers Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Has the American Single Malt Whiskey Commission done a survey of members? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel2jays Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 12 hours ago, Penrock Distillery said: Its going to be a while before I can look at doing a single malt as I have a fair bit of "bourbon" to make once I have my rum ran for some cash flow. I'm thinking ahead with this post. I will report back once I start the R&D. Perhaps you can do the same ? Regards Sim Will do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel2jays Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 12 hours ago, JustAndy said: My .02$ : I've made malt whiskey both ways, and I much prefer malt whiskey made off the grain. The whiskey ends up with clearer, brighter flavor with more fruity and floral notes. The malt whiskey distilled on the grain is muddier and funkier by comparison. If your equipment requires you to make it on the grain then so be it, but if you have a choice I think it makes a better product from clear wash. As a backup plan I've thought about centrifuging off the grain solids between the fermenters and beer well. Do you think this might clean it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAndy Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Do you have already have centrifuge that is capable of this? It seems like it would be cheaper, easier, and more effective to get a lauter tun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silk City Distillers Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 On 1/31/2022 at 11:55 AM, JustAndy said: but if you have a choice I think it makes a better product from clear wash. Are you distilling with yeast or racking off prior to distillation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAndy Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said: Are you distilling with yeast or racking off prior to distillation? We've done it both ways; we don't make that much malt whiskey each year so a brewery produces the wash and sometimes they pitch the yeast and sometimes I do. The brewery usually way over pitches yeast and its a few generations on so I prefer to rack off most of it as you can taste it to some extent in the whiskey. If I pitch the yeast there usually isn't the same yeast biomass and the yeast is better smelling so I'll leave it in. The inclusion of yeast or not might be some part of the difference in flavor I get between grain-in and off-grain but I don't feel it's the main difference. I mostly make brandy and the inclusion and amount of lees/yeast in the wine is a big topic. I have done some lees only distillations which really give a sense memory for the flavor of distilled yeast. The flavor of the yeast is highly variable based on conditions of the ferment as well as how old it is (but that is much less relevant to malt whiskey). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel2jays Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 8 hours ago, JustAndy said: Do you have already have centrifuge that is capable of this? It seems like it would be cheaper, easier, and more effective to get a lauter tun We've initially invested in a Vendome continuous system, with the plan being to install a dedicated lauter tun and pot stills around two years later. The Vendome kit is not due to arrive until later this year so we haven't begun R&D just yet. Finding farmers prepared to take whole stillage in the volumes we'll be producing is proving to be a challenge, so I'm planning to install a centrifuge to separate the wet spent grain solids - which local farmers are more used to receiving as cattle feed - from thin stillage. The idea being that I could also use the centrifuge to separate solids prior to distillation if necessary. Your comment regarding yeast is the bit I'm interested in: "The inclusion of yeast or not might be some part of the difference in flavor I get between grain-in and off-grain but I don't feel it's the main difference." I guess I'll just have to run a few batches during commissioning: 1. Fully on grain, 2. Separate grain solids prior to distillation and, 3. Separate grain solids prior to fermentation. Flavour trumps yield in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT Westy Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 This topic was just discussed with Matt Hofmann from Westland and Murphy Quint from Cedar Ridge on Single Malt Matters. Some interesting insights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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