cowdery Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 How is this for a shot across the bow of the microdistillery movement? On its newly-updated website and presumably in advertising, Brown-Forman's Woodford Reserve is now positioning itself as "Craft Bourbon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperstill Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Chuck, Would you please share with everyone to the best of you knowledge how Woodford Reserve is made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_l Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I think his point is this: Brown-Forman employs 4,120 people worldwide with about 1,000 located in Louisville. Brown-Forman, one of the largest American-owned spirits and wine companies and among the top 10 largest global spirits companies, sells its brands in more than 135 countries and has offices in cities across the globe. In all, Brown-Forman has more than 25 brands in its portfolio of wines and spirits. http://www.brown-forman.com/company/ Kind of a different league than what the folks here are dealing with.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperstill Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I think his point is this: http://www.brown-forman.com/company/ Kind of a different league than what the folks here are dealing with.... I'm more interested in Woodford reserve not the company as a whole. To be honest I know the answer to the question I asked I just wanted Chuck to clarify for others. After all there is a difference between craft and micro right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 I'm more interested in Woodford reserve not the company as a whole. There is a difference between craft and micro right? Okay, then, what's the difference? That's part of the issue. If you can't define 'craft' then just about anybody can claim it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperstill Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Micro is a a small producer. Craft is subjective. Let them try its as arbitrary as the words "Farm Fresh" or "All Natural". Besides Craft Distiller is owned and the copyright hasn't been contested in the time frame required. http://www.craftdistillers.com/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperstill Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 That's very crafty of Brown-Forman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolentBlue Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I'm a fan of Woodford reserve, and while "Craft" may apply, it carries many connotations that don't. yes its just gimmicky advertising. but until "Craft Distiller" is defined legally, they can use it however they like, even if we don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_l Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I suppose the flip side to this is that it's an indication that the large distilleries are very much aware of the trend such that they're positioning their brands to address this growth segment. Kind of the opposite of how the big brewers pretty much ignored the micro brewers when that scene was getting started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 Micro is a a small producer. Craft is subjective. Let them try its as arbitrary as the words "Farm Fresh" or "All Natural". Besides Craft Distiller is owned and the copy write hasn't been contested in the time frame required. http://www.craftdistillers.com/. It's 'copyright' and your statement about it is equally ill-informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperstill Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 It's 'copyright' and your statement about it is equally ill-informed. thanks for the spell check...It you doubt my statement ask Ansley Cole at craft distillers I'm sure he can correct any error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 thanks for the spell check...It you doubt my statement ask Ansley Cole at craft distillers I'm sure he can correct any error. He isn't claiming a copyright, he's claiming a trademark, which he may have rights to in a narrow context, but no way he can prevent anyone else from using the term. I truly don't say this to bash you, Copperstill. I just think it's important to caution anyone who may think you know anything about intellectual property law, since every word you have written on the subject has been wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperstill Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 He isn't claiming a copyright, he's claiming a trademark, which he may have rights to in a narrow context, but no way he can prevent anyone else from using the term. I truly don't say this to bash you, Copperstill. I just think it's important to caution anyone who may think you know anything about intellectual property law, since every word you have written on the subject has been wrong. Your right Chuck I had my terms mixed up I'll double check my terminology next time before I post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absaroka Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Who says it's a "shot across the bow"? I've met the good people at Woodford. Several times, in fact. They have pot stills. Their operation is small (comparatively speaking). They produce a "Master's Collection" that is decidedly outside the box (compared to many industrial distilleries). They're output is small, and it would be even smaller if not for their parent blend of Old Forester. I would venture to guess that a few ADI members could be well on their way to produce as much, or more, than Woodford. Who cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninWV Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I thought their stuff was made in Louisville and the pots on display were for show. Isn't the tourist site really only a bottling and warehouse operation? My info might be incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absaroka Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I thought their stuff was made in Louisville and the pots on display were for show. Isn't the tourist site really only a bottling and warehouse operation? My info might be incorrect. Nope. Their pots are, indeed, used. For their regular Woodford product, it is a mix of what is made on site there as well as Old Forester (made in Shivley/Lousiville). Basically it's the same bourbon mash, just one is made in pot stills and the other in a continuous column. The "Master's Collection" releases from Woodford are pure pot still whiskey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 Woodford Reserve sells more than 100,000 flat cases a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_l Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Those are some busy pot stills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osocalis Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I wish we could all get over size and get on to quality! The question is (and it is the only question that counts) is Woodford Reserve a well made bourbon? The craft is in the bottle or not and it in no way is a necessary function of size. I've tasted some mighty poor small batch bourbon, all claiming to be craft spirits. So much for the craft, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickWrightson Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The craft is in the bottle or not and it in no way is a necessary function of size. Amen...that will be the ultimate taste of who stays on the shelf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph at Tuthilltown Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Perhaps some of you read the thread in which, over a two+ year period, the whole issue of "craft" vs "artisan" vs "micro" was discussed while we tried to nail down a definition to attach to what turned out to be HR 777, a bill to reduce Federal Excise Tax for small producers. Overall the consensus was that "craft" was too nebulous when applied to spirits producers, and had more to do with the nature of the way spirits production was undertaken, "craft" applies to knowledgeable application of a skill set for a utilitarian purpose. The final conclusion was based on what is most objective and that turns out to be a number, the final agreed maximum volume ended up at 65,000 proof gallons a year. A facility producing more than that amount became a factory according to the participants in the discussion. In fact, a Craftsman is a trained professional, a shop manager which could be the manager of a small or large operation. It is not limited to a "distiller" but also applies to for instance those who study and make use of botanicals infused into neutral spirit; the reason why the definition finally accepted did not center on the term "distiller". Instead, the definition was crafted to describe a "spirits producer", which could include a variety of "crafts" ending in an alcoholic beverage. WOODFORD RESERVE has every right to claim their products are "crafted"; it is crafted just on a large scale. It is up to the small distillers, the "farm" distillers and "micro spirits producers" to educate the consumer the differences among the different producers, the big guys who by number are the minority of the distilling community, and the micro producers who represent the increasing majority in that community, regardless the volumes produced by either. The small producer is the "underdog" when facing the major pit bulls of the industry out there in the marketplace, that is an advantage if one chooses to use that status advantageously. The public favors the underdog. Ponderous corporate production giants rarely suggest the "new" and "different", they go on doing what has and is still making profit at the least expense. For them experiments are expensive and risky to release; they will always follow the successful "new" and "different" directions of upstarts. Major corporate anti-risk mindset leads the large producers to enter the "diffusion curve", the S-curve of successful innovation, well after it has passed out of the initial introduction and adaption stages, only when success is nearly guaranteed by general acceptance and the risk of retooling and spending money on marketing is reduced to acceptable levels, when the curve is nearing its peak and flattening out, becoming more dependable. The small producers' ability to be nimble, experiment, test on a local and regional scale and their willingness to accept failure as a cost of progress puts them (us) at an advantage and in the vanguard; a position impossible for our big cousins who seem to, and perhaps believe they do rule the world. Stop worrying about what they are doing, it is a compliment, they are imitating us best they can, but they can not become us. Use your energy to teach the consumers THAT. R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 I don't understand why micro spirits producers have to define themselves, in part, by what they are not, especially when that requires disparaging the majors who, for the most part, have been nothing but welcoming toward new micro producers, whom they view positively as adding excitement and diversity to the category. Can't we all just get along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph at Tuthilltown Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 There is no reference in the accepted definition which was discussed at length and accepted by the majority of producers as to what a "micro spirits producer" was "not". Here is the text which was accepted: Micro Spirit Producers make alcoholic beverage spirits using a variety of techniques and agricultural raw materials including but not limited to herbs, grains and fruit, which substantially change the character of the raw materials; up to 65,000 proof gallons of product per year produced in a single licensed DISTILLED SPIRITS PLANT premises. These techniques include, but are not limited to: infusion, distillation, blending, or other legal permitted means. There was substantial discussion and effort to be INCLUSIVE rather than exclusive in the definition. The only limiting factor of the text is the number, the maximum gallons per year agreed. No reason why we can not get along, even when we disagree. And Diversity is the overarching goal and the inevitable result of the proliferation of new small producers. We see it already. R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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