Questions about Hiring a Fermentation Engineer

[RyeWater]

Hey there, couple questions, we on in the later stages of planning our distillery and have decided to seek out a fermentation engineer to come help us perfect our fermentation process over the course of a 2-4 week period once we are operational. We have researched and read about fermentation till we’re blue in the face but you cannot beat the kind of knowledge you acquire when working with someone with hands on experience.

Do you think that this would be beneficial?

What do you think this would cost roughly speaking?

Where would I locate good candidates?

[MtnMann]

Consult with your favorite local brewery perhaps?

[fldme]

Never heard of a fermentation engineer.

[Donutboy]

I have a couple of friends that work for Wyeast Labs and they have consulted before but usually on a very large scale. What's the experience of this 'engineer'?

[Denver Distiller]

Hey there, couple questions, we on in the later stages of planning our distillery and have decided to seek out a fermentation engineer to come help us perfect our fermentation process over the course of a 2-4 week period once we are operational.

Assuming you're fermenting some type of grain, pick up the phone, and call your malt supplier. They all have former brewers on staff. Between the maltsters and brewers, you'll have everything you'll need to know for your fermentation in one phone call. Best of all, its free. All you have to do is reciprocate their good faith help, and buy their malt.

[mendodistilling]

You can look into Seibel Institute and contact them, see what they may have to offer. They are a beer brewing school. There is also the Harriot Watt University in Scotland, I know of a guy named Graeam Walker who did a presentation at Sieble and they go into some serious detail on equipment and theory. He could at the very least point you in the right direction. Lallemand is a massive company with plenty of people who would be willing to offer information. There is Roger Boulton at UC Davis.

[RyeWater]

I have a couple of friends that work for Wyeast Labs and they have consulted before but usually on a very large scale. What's the experience of this 'engineer'?

I will contact them and see what they have to offer.

Assuming you're fermenting some type of grain, pick up the phone, and call your malt supplier. They all have former brewers on staff. Between the maltsters and brewers, you'll have everything you'll need to know for your fermentation in one phone call. Best of all, its free. All you have to do is reciprocate their good faith help, and buy their malt.

Often times these guys know things the pros dont! Pricing grains is next on my to do list so I can kill two birds with one stone.

You can look into Seibel Institute and contact them, see what they may have to offer. They are a beer brewing school. There is also the Harriot Watt University in Scotland, I know of a guy named Graeam Walker who did a presentation at Sieble and they go into some serious detail on equipment and theory. He could at the very least point you in the right direction. Lallemand is a massive company with plenty of people who would be willing to offer information. There is Roger Boulton at UC Davis.

Great that sounds good I am going to look into them now and contact them, thanks.

[mendodistilling]

This is a very good book in general

http://www.amazon.com/Whisky-Technology-Production-Marketing-Alcoholic/dp/0126692025

[boognish]

I don't intend this to be mean, but the OP is pretty hilarious. Fermentation engineer? LOL This isn't a jab, but I am amazed at how many going into this industry have such little knowledge about even the most basic production aspects of an alcoholic beverage. That being said, it is never too late to learn!

Look, get yourself some basic homebrewing gear and brew a couple of recipes. It is really pretty hard to screw it up, especially for distilling. Brewing beer is much more difficult than brewing distiller's beer too. Make sure you are pitching enough yeast, the proper amount of nutrient, and the right temperature for your yeast and you will have your wash in less than a week's time ready for the stripper. Is there more to know about fermentation? Sure. People get PhD's in fermentation chemistry, yeast microbiology, etc. Should you learn about it? Sure, if you are interested in it, it is really some fascinating stuff. But on the basic level, people have been fermenting whatever they can for millennia. There is not much to it.

[mendodistilling]

It depends on how stable your water is, if you have bad water, too much boron, manganese, no calcium, high pH, THESE CAN FAIL YOUR FERMENTATIONS. So having a guy consult this is probably a good thing. If your on the west coast, doing so in the summer and winter is probably a good idea as the water table changes and your pH and minerals change. I have great water, aquifer. My friends in the closest town south, terrible water, full of minerals.

[mendodistilling]

Fruit growers lab in California for anyone is a good water lab and general farming lab to which you can send in samples and have them guide you. Water chemistry is a fabulous tool to correct your water for best performance with the least amount of chlorides, sodium, etc. From additives without really knowing what you start with. Yeast is also something a guy may want help with if he is big enough. Not everyone starts out on a shoe string. I was looking at a 2 Mil loan with a payback of 20k / month pay back note. I don't want any problems when having to survive that debt load. I'd hire people for sure for their consultation and layout of a plan for me to follow.

[Wilderness Trace]

RyeWater, There is such a thing as fermentation engineers and Ferm Solutions Inc has them. Ferm Solutions supports both the spirits industry and the fuel ethanol industry with products such as yeast and tons of services from a full analytical lab, start up training, plant design support, all aspects of fermentation and distillation, basically from grain to bottle. The expertise of Ferm Solutions is in all areas and types of fermentation and the optimization of fermentation. With over 200 yeast strains to choose from, Ferm Solutions yeast produces around 5 billion gallons of ethyl alcohol (fuel and spirits volume) around the globe and some of the best brands on the market use FSI's yeast and optimization or lab services.

www.ferm-solutions.com

859-402-8707 main number

[RyeWater]

RyeWater, There is such a thing as fermentation engineers and Ferm Solutions Inc has them. Ferm Solutions supports both the spirits industry and the fuel ethanol industry with products such as yeast and tons of services from a full analytical lab, start up training, plant design support, all aspects of fermentation and distillation, basically from grain to bottle. The expertise of Ferm Solutions is in all areas and types of fermentation and the optimization of fermentation. With over 200 yeast strains to choose from, Ferm Solutions yeast produces around 5 billion gallons of ethyl alcohol (fuel and spirits volume) around the globe and some of the best brands on the market use FSI's yeast and optimization or lab services.

www.ferm-solutions.com

859-402-8707 main number

I don't intend this to be mean, but the OP is pretty hilarious. Fermentation engineer? LOL This isn't a jab, but I am amazed at how many going into this industry have such little knowledge about even the most basic production aspects of an alcoholic beverage. That being said, it is never too late to learn!

Look, get yourself some basic homebrewing gear and brew a couple of recipes. It is really pretty hard to screw it up, especially for distilling. Brewing beer is much more difficult than brewing distiller's beer too. Make sure you are pitching enough yeast, the proper amount of nutrient, and the right temperature for your yeast and you will have your wash in less than a week's time ready for the stripper. Is there more to know about fermentation? Sure. People get PhD's in fermentation chemistry, yeast microbiology, etc. Should you learn about it? Sure, if you are interested in it, it is really some fascinating stuff. But on the basic level, people have been fermenting whatever they can for millennia. There is not much to it.

Just because someone uses a different term than you doesn't mean that they lack "even the most basic production aspects of an alcoholic beverage" Between my research and my fathers research who is a chemist of 40 years we posses a very good understanding of fermentation as a matter of fact but we are not so arrogant as to think that books alone can supplement the kind of knowledge you gain from someone who specializes in this sort of thing. The term fermentation engineer was not a term I had heard either, a friend of mines friend owns a distillery in Denver and I got to opportunity to speak with him and he recommended hiring a "fermentation engineer" so I am pretty sure they are known in the industry....

It depends on how stable your water is, if you have bad water, too much boron, manganese, no calcium, high pH, THESE CAN FAIL YOUR FERMENTATIONS. So having a guy consult this is probably a good thing. If your on the west coast, doing so in the summer and winter is probably a good idea as the water table changes and your pH and minerals change. I have great water, aquifer. My friends in the closest town south, terrible water, full of minerals.

Thanks, getting the water tested is on our list of things to do to figure out what were working with, any idea where to find info on what optimal water is composed of, im sure i can find this on my own though. thanks.

Fruit growers lab in California for anyone is a good water lab and general farming lab to which you can send in samples and have them guide you. Water chemistry is a fabulous tool to correct your water for best performance with the least amount of chlorides, sodium, etc. From additives without really knowing what you start with. Yeast is also something a guy may want help with if he is big enough. Not everyone starts out on a shoe string. I was looking at a 2 Mil loan with a payback of 20k / month pay back note. I don't want any problems when having to survive that debt load. I'd hire people for sure for their consultation and layout of a plan for me to follow.

Thanks for the contacts will will look into these guys. This is what we are trying to budget now, we are going for a smaller operation but still a sizable investment for us and want to make sure we are as prepared as we can be. I would love to speak with you further if you had some free time or an email i could contact you at.

[RyeWater]

RyeWater, There is such a thing as fermentation engineers and Ferm Solutions Inc has them. Ferm Solutions supports both the spirits industry and the fuel ethanol industry with products such as yeast and tons of services from a full analytical lab, start up training, plant design support, all aspects of fermentation and distillation, basically from grain to bottle. The expertise of Ferm Solutions is in all areas and types of fermentation and the optimization of fermentation. With over 200 yeast strains to choose from, Ferm Solutions yeast produces around 5 billion gallons of ethyl alcohol (fuel and spirits volume) around the globe and some of the best brands on the market use FSI's yeast and optimization or lab services.

www.ferm-solutions.com

859-402-8707 main number

see im not crazy everyone thanks Wilderness, im crashing now but ill look into you guys tomorrow and give you a call.

[boognish]

Like I said I don't mean it as a dig, but it really isn't that hard. Don't let anyone fool you out of a lot of money. Any question you have I can help you with, either publicly or thru pm. I am a pro brewer and distiller and beyond that have been home brewing for 16 years or so. Also helped design curriculum for 400 level chemistry and bio fermentation science college courses.

Water definitely is important, but that goes without saying. However I view that as an ingredients spec issue. Just like you wouldn't buy corn, rye, barley, or malt outside spec. Of course you need good water. You can send a sample to ward labs for pretty cheap. They have a couple of options, but I would select the cheapest one. The pricier one gets more in depth than what you will need, but if you don't mind spending the extra cash, go ahead.

[RyeWater]

Completely agree boog, we have already taken most all of those things into consideration and will be doing all that on our own. Just was poking into it after a friend of ours with a distillery recommended it. If the price was reasonable it wouldn't be a bad idea, good thing to boast about in tours and the website too, saying you brought in a "fermentation engineer to perfect your recipes" doesn't sound terrible!

[boognish]

Sure but it will sound odd to anyone involved in the alcohol business or knowledgeable beverage enthusiasts. The best thing you can do is to get a couple if batches of home brewed beer going. Once you do it a few times, you will see what I mean. If you have brewing questions check out www.brews-bros.com

One of the best homebrewers forums online.

[Natrat]

Like every other part of this industry, there is a LOT going on with a fermentation. I think that a consultant is a good step for those who want peace of mind and good yields. Having dealt with fermentations of all types over the past few decades, I'm always amazed at how many different techniques there are...and I'm amazed just as often at the bone-headed procedures some people insist on using. Even though I don't think I need a fermentation engineer for myself (which probably means I'd better go find one...pride cometh before a fall!), I'd love to sit down and talk shop with one.

And while I'm not sure I'd enlist the help of too many homebrewers, I think that professional brewers are a great resource. Beer is a far more delicate, difficult beverage to ferment than what we require in a distillery. The finesse of a brewer can really help you...especially a brewer that does a lot of high-gravity beer. I've also learned a great deal from cider makers and mead makers. Not to mention wine and sake producers. The vinegar guys know some cool tricks, too!

[Dehner Distillery]

I have a distillery making whiskeys, rums, and a vodka.

I have another company red boot stills.

we do a lot more than just build stills.

we do

1, consulting from start up and beyond

2, logo and label design and marketing with in house design team

3. custom equipment

4. build stills and very soon-bottling machine and labeling machine

you don't need the ferment guy! I use lallemand they can help you with any thing. then i use "specialty enzymes" to max out the yield. they are both great companys!

take care!

joe dehner

515-559-4879

[boognish]

Like every other part of this industry, there is a LOT going on with a fermentation. I think that a consultant is a good step for those who want peace of mind and good yields. Having dealt with fermentations of all types over the past few decades, I'm always amazed at how many different techniques there are...and I'm amazed just as often at the bone-headed procedures some people insist on using. Even though I don't think I need a fermentation engineer for myself (which probably means I'd better go find one...pride cometh before a fall!), I'd love to sit down and talk shop with one.

And while I'm not sure I'd enlist the help of too many homebrewers, I think that professional brewers are a great resource. Beer is a far more delicate, difficult beverage to ferment than what we require in a distillery. The finesse of a brewer can really help you...especially a brewer that does a lot of high-gravity beer. I've also learned a great deal from cider makers and mead makers. Not to mention wine and sake producers. The vinegar guys know some cool tricks, too!

All I am saying is that if you have never fermented anything, the best way to learn is by doing it. Fermenting for distillation is cake. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss homebrewers either. I know a lot of them whose expertise puts many of my pro brewing colleagues to shame.

[RyeWater]

All I am saying is that if you have never fermented anything, the best way to learn is by doing it. Fermenting for distillation is cake. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss homebrewers either. I know a lot of them whose expertise puts many of my pro brewing colleagues to shame.

I have home brewed before but It had been a few years, on your advice i just went to my local beer brewing store and am back in the trade.

Like every other part of this industry, there is a LOT going on with a fermentation. I think that a consultant is a good step for those who want peace of mind and good yields. Having dealt with fermentations of all types over the past few decades, I'm always amazed at how many different techniques there are...and I'm amazed just as often at the bone-headed procedures some people insist on using. Even though I don't think I need a fermentation engineer for myself (which probably means I'd better go find one...pride cometh before a fall!), I'd love to sit down and talk shop with one.

And while I'm not sure I'd enlist the help of too many homebrewers, I think that professional brewers are a great resource. Beer is a far more delicate, difficult beverage to ferment than what we require in a distillery. The finesse of a brewer can really help you...especially a brewer that does a lot of high-gravity beer. I've also learned a great deal from cider makers and mead makers. Not to mention wine and sake producers. The vinegar guys know some cool tricks, too!

Sounds like we are on about the same page (mentally at least, fermentationally speaking were are unfortunately not!

[bradocaster]

Sherman Owen from Artisan Resources was our choice for fermentation help(among other things). we were very happy with the results his suggestions produced.

Brad

[Natrat]

All I am saying is that if you have never fermented anything, the best way to learn is by doing it. Fermenting for distillation is cake. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss homebrewers either. I know a lot of them whose expertise puts many of my pro brewing colleagues to shame.

I totally agree that there is no substitute for experience. But experience isn't always a substitute for advanced education, either. I grew up with a real disdain for academia, but now I know the value of it. Take a homebrewer and drop him into a decent professional brewery, and he might be able to keep up with the cell counts, glycogen levels, spin fermentation, D-rests, and viability. Take even a seasoned professional brewer, and drop him into a high volume environment like Asahi or Heineken and HE will be bewildered with gradient fermentations, cryogenic libraries, and continuous fermentation. The point is...it's easy to ferment something...but someone else ALWAYS knows more than you about it. Everytime I think I know what the hell is going on, I get punched off my high horse pretty quick. Usually by some punk kid that remembers what he reads.

The comment about homebrewers is well-founded. 20 years of making weekly brews is 400 distinct fermentations...and a fresh-minted Siebel pro might only have 3 or 4 fermentations under their belt. The guys I have respect for are the BOP brewers. They do upwards of 1800 distinct fermentations each year. Some pros won't see that in their entire career.

I don't think there is anything bad in asking for help...as long as the hand holding ends once the help is done.

And I might also comment that I have seen more disastrous fermentation debacles in distilleries than in any other industry. Although wineries are a close second.