Converting Maceration Recipe to Vapor Basket?

[BraedenB]

We are switching our botanical infusion from a macerated gin to a vapor infused gin and are working through the baseline quantities of what we will need. Our recipe previously had about 11 pounds of botanicals macerated in a little over 100 gallons of 20 percent neutral spirits and distilled through a 500 liter pot still.

We are now going to be distilling on a 1000 liter pot and will be distilling using a vapor basket rather than bathtubing it. Our basket can't even fit the 11 pounds unless you really jam it in and I don't want to risk blocking the condenser. I was looking through conversions and before I start throwing away money running some tests I wanted to see if anyone else had any basic conversions they recommend when converting botanical amounts from maceration to vapor basket. It sounds like you need less botanicals from vapor infusing, but I have heard that some essential oils don't get picked up as well in the basket. I would prefer to run the still full to reduce in utility costs but if it doesn't translate well then we might have to run smaller amounts.

Any advice or opinions would help. Thanks guys.

[FernandoP]

I don't know if this is any help, but I run about 25 to 40 grams of botanicals per proof litter in my basket. 25g is for a mild gin with 9 botanicals and close to 40 grams for a full flavor gin with 23 botanicals

[whiskeytango]

Your going to need a bigger gin basket. In my experience you need much more botanicals to vapor infuse vs maceration.

[Broken Anvil Distilleries]

Reviving an old thread. We love our gin, but for yield (due basket capacity limitations) and consistency (different people grinding juniper may be resulting in differing levels if astringency),  we are looking to macerate our juniper and leave the remainder of botanicals in the basket. I was curious about ballpark ratios to start our experiments at in an effort to produce a very similar (ideally identical ) gin.

 Would experiments of half the amount of juniper macerated (by dry weight) for 16-24h be comparable to weights used in basket or should we start at 3/4 the weight used in vapour path or above ? 

[SLCDBD]

vapor extraction is high efficiency. it's tough to get a balanced run without getting nasty terpenes in your collection. 

 

liquid-solid extraction is a lot easier to manage IMHO, and yields are much higher when you distill the macerate carefully. 

[Al The Chemist]

Re-Reviving an old thread. 

I’m experimenting with vapor vs. maceration. Besides more that can possibly go wrong (for instance, botanicals in the basket packing too tight and causing side channeling), I can’t see much benefit to vapor distilling. I was expecting to get more subtle flavors, but I mostly found I just need more botanical material and the results are very similar to maceration. Is there something that I’m missing? A side basket keeps the still cleaner with the heavy oils not contaminating the kettle and column, that’s not that big of an issue for me.  

Is there combo method based on botanical fragility?

[Kindred Spirits]

Sometimes it seems people just want to tout that the "vapor infuse" their botanicals as some magic method of making Gin.

What I have found to be true is that vapor infusions have their place with certain botanicals that "stew easily" like florals cucumber and other similar botanicals. A properly designed gin basket will allow the lighter, more desirable flavor compounds to be brought into your final product while sending the heavier less desirable ones back to the still boiler. But you will have to play with your ratios, as the extraction rates can vary based on the size and design of your gin basket and also the how long you are running your equipment. 
 

For a majority of clients though, a boiler charge delivers a good amount of flavor and simplicity and with careful cuts can deliver a great gin.

[Al The Chemist]

Thanks @Kindred Spirits, appreciate the insight. 

[Silk City Distillers]

We only vapor distill, no maceration.

I like to think it produces a higher fidelity gin, more distinctive flavor profile, less muddling of flavors.  I spent some ridiculous amount of time playing with gin, I think like 4 years, before I was happy enough to sell a bottle.  It's light, and it's citrus forward, I joke that it's gin for people that hate gin.  Many people told me ours was their "gateway drug" to gin.

Gin is by far the widest variability in flavor profile of all spirits, despite the "predominantly juniper" requirement, and probably the most subjectively personal of all spirits.  Thus, there is nearly unlimited potential to find a unique niche.

If your love is for a big gin, that lends itself to maceration, I feel that maceration also favors warmer botanicals.  If I was looking do something with warmer baking spices, cinnamon, cubeb, peppercorn, clove, I'd totally go with a maceration approach.  In my case, it's a more modern take, florals and citrus that I want to emphasize, the light stuff that would easily get overshadowed.  Elderflower, a touch of Cardamom, Cucumber.  We use two different types of citrus peel, and I want to be able to distinctively recognize both of them in the gin.  Juniper is the predominant botanical, but honestly, I'd love to take it down even further.  Juniper is the worst part of gin (don't shoot me).

Ain't no right or wrong here.

Also, there is absolutely no mathematical formula to convert a maceration recipe to a vapor infused recipe.  In my experience, math doesn't matter, the extraction profiles are very different, so even with the same grams of botanical per liter of finished spirit output, the flavor is going to be different.

I really wish we could standardize on a botanical measurement - imho, I prefer to base it on grams per liter of finished spirit (post-proofing), as that automatically standardizes for proofing, and is independent of the alcohol concentration.  This feels more like g/l or ppm of extracted oils in the finished product, which is a truer measure of flavor concentration.

[Al The Chemist]

My main issue on the vapor side is inconsistency even using the same charge. I’ve experimented with both inline baskets and offset baskets. I get bare hints of extraction from the offset baskets, even when really amping up the botanicals (somewhere between what I’d consider a gun and a vodka). And inconsistent results with the inline. My theory with the inline is that at times the botanical oil “drip” coming off the basket makes it back into the reflux and concentrates. Am I missing something in principal? Maybe my packing methods?

No judgement on the juniper. I love its bite and its after taste, through too much of it makes the gin resonate like sanitation fluid. It’s definitely a matter of balance.

Is there a world where you load the heavier botanicals on the maceration side and season things with vapor?

As for the grams per final post-proofing. My cut points slightly very from run to run. Do you find that at all an issue?

[Silk City Distillers]

Assuming you are  distilling from neutral, I would imagine the cuts are relatively small, so no.  It would be the initial heads cut that's going to have an impact on the final g/l numbers, not necessarily the tails cut, which is after the bulk of the extraction has taken place.

Large, tall, narrow baskets might not be ideal, you may get channeling and inconsistent vapor flow, especially where mixing botanicals together will cause them to pack together tightly.  You need to inspect your basket contents when you dump to confirm that you don't have any pockets of unextracted material.

I think Hendrick's John Dore Carter Head design shows what good looks like, short and fat, wide vapor path.  For example:

https://www.sightunseen.com/2010/10/hendricks-gin-in-girvan-scotland/hendricks-gin-palace-where-hendricks-is-distilled-girvan-scotland-3/

Vendome also has a dedicated gin design I've lusted after, it leverages a short squat basket in the headspace, but is a direct part of the vapor path.  It's actually a pretty clever design.

[Bolverk]

On 5/30/2024 at 3:51 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

Vendome also has a dedicated gin design I've lusted after, it leverages a short squat basket in the headspace, but is a direct part of the vapor path.  It's actually a pretty clever design.

Any chance you have a pic of this? I'm curious what it looks like...

[Kindred Spirits]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:51 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

Assuming you are  distilling from neutral, I would imagine the cuts are relatively small, so no.  It would be the initial heads cut that's going to have an impact on the final g/l numbers, not necessarily the tails cut, which is after the bulk of the extraction has taken place.

Large, tall, narrow baskets might not be ideal, you may get channeling and inconsistent vapor flow, especially where mixing botanicals together will cause them to pack together tightly.  You need to inspect your basket contents when you dump to confirm that you don't have any pockets of unextracted material.

I think Hendrick's John Dore Carter Head design shows what good looks like, short and fat, wide vapor path.  For example:

https://www.sightunseen.com/2010/10/hendricks-gin-in-girvan-scotland/hendricks-gin-palace-where-hendricks-is-distilled-girvan-scotland-3/

Vendome also has a dedicated gin design I've lusted after, it leverages a short squat basket in the headspace, but is a direct part of the vapor path.  It's actually a pretty clever design.

That's a super cool design I haven't seen that one before. I have some ideas for designing a custom gin basket for client to use, I would love to talk with you sometime to discuss. Maybe come up with something great for future use.

[Silk City Distillers]

5 hours ago, Bolverk said:

Any chance you have a pic of this? I'm curious what it looks like...

No, only my quote drawings and I can't post those.

Basically, it's a squat steam jacketed tank with a large glass manway directly on top, literally, square at the top of the tank, pointing straight up.  The botanicals basket is accessed via that large top manway, and sits at the bottom of the manway walls.  Vapor is taken off from above the basket.

It's all wide open, easy to flip open the top, grab the handle, load the basket, drop in, and go.  I'm sure you could even replicate that Hendricks style basket if you wanted to get fancy with keeping the botanicals separate

It's the kind of design that you look at and think, damn that's such a simple solution, why on earth is everyone else overcomplicating this.  Your tank needs the manway anyway, they were the first ones that realized you could accomplish two things with the one door and simplify everything else in the process.

 

 

 

 

[Bolverk]

7 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

No, only my quote drawings and I can't post those.

Basically, it's a squat steam jacketed tank with a large glass manway directly on top, literally, square at the top of the tank, pointing straight up.  The botanicals basket is accessed via that large top manway, and sits at the bottom of the manway walls.  Vapor is taken off from above the basket.

It's all wide open, easy to flip open the top, grab the handle, load the basket, drop in, and go.  I'm sure you could even replicate that Hendricks style basket if you wanted to get fancy with keeping the botanicals separate

It's the kind of design that you look at and think, damn that's such a simple solution, why on earth is everyone else overcomplicating this.  Your tank needs the manway anyway, they were the first ones that realized you could accomplish two things with the one door and simplify everything else in the process.

 

Yeah, I understand. 

I think I'm getting the gist, sounds cool.