will

Will, are you buying your hydrometers directly from HB or another source? I've tried to buy directly, but no luck.

years ago in days of old ... in the darkest depths of Mordor ... i was a temperature instrument engineer.

some of the certified electronic units using RTDs are simply amazing. i believe they behave better over large temperature ranges than thermometers. it seems like it's the regularity of the bore size of the thermometer tube that determines how non-linear a glass thermometer will be. for RTDs, the platinum will respond quite predictably from one temperature to another nearby temperature, but they're going to cost more than $45...which is about what we pay for our working thermometers. i guess they'll break less often too. there are several around here - i should dig one out and have a look at it.

yes, we buy direct from HB - we've been doing that for years. maybe their policies have changed and they've grandfathered us. just received about $1000 worth of toys from them today. i love glass - it's so pretty.

don't forget, Anton Parr machines are instruments too. they're subject to calibration and readability errors. they use a very interesting technology.

it's been years since i was close enough to metrology to do this subject justice. I do remember that 0.5 lb resolution and 0.5 lb accuracy are different, and the uncertainty of reading a digital display is always considered +- 1 least significant digit.

let's do an easy one - you're blending down from 190 to 80 proof, and you receive your raw spirit in 55 gallon drums. if you divide that drum in half, when you're down to 80 proof, you'll have 65 gallons - not good - it won't fit. so, knowing that in advance, you make three batches. 55/3 = 18.33 gallons. you'll need 124.56 lbs of spirit, then you'll add water to a total of 345.1 lbs...43.54 gallons.

let's say you blow the weighment of the alcohol in one direction and the water in the opposite direction. so instead of 124.5 lbs ethanol, you dispense only 124, and your total is 345.6lbs. what's the error in proof? you would be about 0.4 proof low. you can measure that with the hydrometer, and make a quick correction, but it will be difficult and time consuming, and you'll want to make the secondary corrections using a desktop scale to weigh small amounts of water and alcohol.

there are small floor scales that are NTEP rated and have 0.1 lb resolution and will weigh to 600 lb - plenty for a 55lb drum. they're around $600. that would reduce the error to under 0.1 proof (under the same assumptions).

making the assumption that resolution and reading are the dominant factor (we're assuming that the scale is accurate and our use of the scale is the cause of all errors), then when you use your big scale to weigh larger quantities, then the error is a smaller percentage. if you're only weighing 10 lbs, then 0.5 lb is a big deal, but not so much if you're weighing 500 lbs.

good luck,

will

we purchased the calibrated mercury thermometer. we source from HB Instrument, and they've deleted mercury from their catalog, but have some stock remaining. red spirit is the replacement, and it's the same accuracy, but available only in Celsius.

we use the certified thermometer to check the performance of the other thermometers.

we write-down the serial numbers of the thermometer and hydrometer used each time we gauge, just in case there's a problem.

we also have calibrated hydrometers for each product proof range.

occasionally, we also mix reference solutions of 200 proof ethanol with distilled water (by weight) and (1) test our instruments on that, and (2) send it out for testing to an accredited lab to see what they say the proof is.

HB has Item # 20528, Enviro-Safe® NIST Traceable Calibrated Thermometer. it's -1 to 60C by 0.1C, so it meets the requirements in the CFR, but it's in C, not F. You can do that correction rather easily.

Good luck,

Will

p.s. the NIST just announced they would no longer be providing calibration services for mercury thermometers.

best i've had was 56 minutes. we had a trio. first one took about 30 days for the rejection, then about 12 days each for the next rejection, and finally the approval. once that was done, we submitted the second one and got approval later that day...then submitted the third and got approval in 56 minutes. seems once you're on their radar you can sort of stay there.

good luck,

will

IBD is a fine organization, but it's not a university. Heriot-Watt (ICBD) would be my pick. If you're already in the industry and have gray hair, IBD would be a fine place to help refine your knowledge.

by the way, I believe Bill Owens took his input from distillers in the field, so perhaps the guy with 1000 gallons of wash was not really at 10%, maybe he was taking big fat cuts on each pass, who knows. in an ideal world of 100% efficiency, he would fill 3 barrels. if he only gets one, that's called alcohol abuse.

a universe of variables in that question.

run the numbers from 50% to 70% overall, but that's going into the barrel, you'll have losses there too. you'll likely fall to the higher side - maybe 65% or so.

good luck,

will

500 gallons of wash x .08 = 40 gallons of absolute alcohol. this is the theoretical yield of this 8% wash, and nobody gets that much.

40 gallons of absolute alcohol / .60 = 66.6 gallons of 120 proof juice going into the barrel. again, this is theoretical.

53 / 66.6 = ~80%. this is the efficiency with which you have to operate your equipment in order to fill a 53 gallon barrel with the distillate from this wash. you will be operating at a lower efficiency.

good luck,

will

This is a study of the incidence and probability of explosion and fire during production and storage of whisky performed by the Health and Safety Laboratory (UK).

When local officials are having trouble interpreting IBC/IFC sections, things like this might help them to set their fears aside.

Good luck,

Will

A few comments: (I'm addressing this presuming "water bath" means a water jacket at atmospheric pressure)

We have a water jacketed still, but I would not call it a simple water bath. It's a direct fired still, so the water jacket is really just a boiler on the outside of the kettle. When you use a direct-fired still with a water jacket, the jacket is usually allowed to contain a small pressure. This allows the water to rise above 212F, and facilitates heat transfer significantly. The water jacket also provides very nice heat distribution so there's no scorching of the contents as you would find with a true direct-fired still. This type of still is easy to convert to live steam.

Also, we have some experience with using the small glass stills in our lab with a water bath. We were too cheap to buy the really-expensive-joe-cool-guy electric mantles for the still, so we're using butane fueled chafing dish heaters - like a single burner camping stove. When we experienced a bit of scorching around the rim of the puddle of fluid in the bottom of the hot beaker, we tried a water bath. This is simply a bowl of water placed under the hot side. It works okay, but it's a bit slow.

We've not tried this, but the purpose of steam is to get the temperature higher than the contents of the kettle so there's a big gradient between the heat source and what you're heating. If you didn't have steam, only hot water, you might want to try using vacuum to reduce the boiling point of the kettle, and that would hurry things quite a bit.

We have tried vacuum on the small stills mentioned above (but we didn't need the water bath at all)...and our distillations take far less time, the direct fire doesn't cause scorching, and they run cool enough that the turn-around time between runs is significantly lower...we run more times per day using vacuum. Your mileage may vary.

If I had a water bath still and had to run at atmospheric, I would be inclined to fill the bath with something other than water...something that would provide good heat uptake and transfer, and would allow heating above 212F. Perhaps there's an oil or glycol product that would fit the bill. Don't be fooled into believing that because ethanol boils at around 175F, that you'll do just fine using water as a transfer medium because it boils at 212F, so you'll be done when the jacket starts to boil. That's not how it works. A 10% solution of ethanol in water boils at something like 195F, not 175F, so when the water boils, your delta-T is only 7F. That's not going to transfer into the kettle very well.

Good luck,

Will

Be careful out there, my friends.

Great advise. It's like Spy v.s. Spy out there. The world is filled with dirty little tricksters.

As a further illustration of the point I was making earlier - perhaps looking at the other side of the coin:

Go to any food or beverage production company in your town, and try to buy something at retail. It doesn't matter if it's booze or salad dressing, they won't do it. Even though the three-tier channel structure is not mandated, it's what works best, even in non-regulated sectors. Each tier is a different business, and each demands different skills.

This is not to say that laws should not allow micro-distillers to have the right to sell directly to retailers and consumers (I'm all for freedom of choice), it's simply that the real world does not work that way, and exercising that right might not be in the long-term best interest of the micro-distiller because there's a built-in "golden fence" that traps your business and keeps it from growing beyond it's own location.

I think it's very interesting to note that some of the most successful micro-distilling businesses are in control states. In those states, the likelihood that micro-distillers will EVER be allowed to sell to retailers and consumers is very low. Nonetheless, their products often fly off the shelves. One has to ponder the question of why that happens.

Welcome to the world of the double-edged sword. This sword cuts both ways.

You'll find that it's pretty tough to be in two places at once.

Classically trained MBAs (while scorned in many circles) can tell you the truth about life. Market channels exist because they work.

As a born-again capitalist, I can tell you that in an ideal market each task in the channel is compensated at the lowest possible rate because if someone else believes they can do the task for less money, they'll under-bid the other guy.

Sadly, no market is ideal, but food and beverage distribution is not far off.

We should take a lesson from the winegrowers in California. In California, "winegrowers" have a so-called 02 license. This license has the following privileges:

(1) to crush fruit and ferment it making wine, and to purchase bulk wine for all uses listed below

(2) to distill - to make fruit brandy (though an 06 still license is also required)

(3) to rectify - that is to blend wines and/or brandys with or without additional flavoring materials,

(4) to bottle the products made, and bottle as a service to other winegrowers

(5) to deal in warehouse receipts

(6) to accept returns and exchanges at the wholesale level

(7) to sell to licensed wholesalers

(8) to sell to licensed retailers

(9) to sell both by the bottle and by the glass directly to consumers at the primary place of business,

(10) to sell as in (9) above at a separately licensed off-site tasting room

(11) to sell other winegrower's products as in (9) and (10) above not to exceed 50% of sales.

(12) there's no prohibition against sale of other collateral - logo-wear, etc.

(13) there's no prohibition (AFIK) against having a restaurant as well.

So, (7,8,9) allows these guys to sell direct - period.

Imagine that. They can make wine, stick it in a bottle, and get the manufacturer's markup, plus they can sell the stuff to retailers and get the wholesaler's markup too, and in addition, they can sell directly to consumers and get the retailer's markup on top of all of that.

The numbers look SO GOOD that you'll never want to leave home.

And that's exactly where the sword cuts the other way. The margins are so good that you'll be trapped wearing golden handcuffs...and you'll be a wine maker who's also a shop keeper.

The problem is that this doesn't scale.

There are many small wineries struggling along like trap-door spiders waiting for tourists to trickle in and buy a bottle here and a bottle there. On a good day, they'll sell a thousand bucks worth of wine. Maybe they get two days like that per week in the tourist season.

It's not a business...it's a struggle.

Nice example, eh?

Let's get back on track. Every state is different, but even in the best state, the right to self-distribute is only good in your own state. If you want to get into another state, you'll have to deal with either the state itself, or a distributor in that state. So, the bottom-line is that you're going to have to deal with distribution sooner or later. The sooner you build those relationships, the sooner you'll have those relationships working for you.

Now, let's talk about a few myths:

(1) Black guys are....

(2) Distributors drive sales.

I can't tell you about (1), but I can tell you that (2) is false. You have to drive sales. This is true whether you're the distributor, or you employ one to do your deliveries. You're still the sales guy. Spend your time selling.

After all of this, you're probably thinking I'm a distributor. I am. I self-distribute....and it kinda sucks. The margins are pretty good, but I have to do all the work, and I have to do all the work because I need those margins because I need the money, so I can't afford a distributor. I'm stuck in a corner wearing golden handcuffs....and I can see that this doesn't scale. The only way I can see out of this predicament might be to be a better distributor. To do that, I have to hire some sales guys...but to hire them, I have to make it worth their while. For it to be worth their while, I need a pretty good sized portfolio so that each sales call makes money for them. Hey, that's IT! Maybe I should be selling your products too!

Good luck to you!

Will

Vendome has an electrically fired oil-transport boiler that makes sense. Oil can be heated higher in temperature than water at atmospheric pressure, so for installations where pressure boilers, open flame, etc. are issues, that may be an option.

Electric steam boilers work just fine too.

Good luck,

Will

Here's the same data as .XLS - stripped of notes, but now it's easy to sort.

(updated with Control States colored yellow)

just found they posted the original data from 2000 - 2010 in .XLS formatHERE

but it does not sort correctly due to the (notes in parens)

sintax.xls

Or post them on something like PhotoBucket and link to them here.

The first of the two links from JohnD did not work for me.

This did.

H-B Instrument is the Cal-Lab that TTB uses for their own stuff. They manufacture hydrometers and thermometers. They will sell direct to Basic Permit holders. Nova-Tech is a reseller of Bellwether hydrometers.

Alcohol Proof Hydrometers The IRS types are the 6400 series...0.2%.

Higher Precision Hydrometers These are 0.1%.

There's also a waste alcohol hydrometer that's 0-5 proof in another section.

This is the thermometer you'll want to use to check calibration of other thermometers - it's expensive: NIST Traceable Mercury

This is your working thermometer It's full immersion, and 0.5% of scale.

You likely do not need a full set of hydrometers. Tax determination (bottling) is the time when you really need the high accuracy of precision hydrometers and thermometers. You can spend less than $500 for everything that's essential.

Vendome makes a small still that uses an electric heater/boiler and oil transfer using a pump. This allows higher temperatures at atmospheric pressure. That heating unit is available from another vendor, but it would work more safely with the sanke keg.

If you pursue the electric 3phase thing, you will use an element per phase, and then gang those together with something like four sets of elements, and stage those sets on/off within the proportional band of your temp controller. When it's below the proportional band, all four sets of elements would be on, then as you approach setpoint, the sets of elements shut-down. If you operate above atmospheric, you should consider control based on pressure rather than temperature.

Good luck.

BTW, I love your avatar picture. Saw Jeff Dunham in Louisville a few months ago, and Walter was by far the funniest.

wh

Have you noticed that Walter is the spittin' image of our current Vice President? Beady little eyes and all. That cracks me up!

Tell your dad I said HI, and that we'll raise a glass to the two of you tomorrow as we give thanks for our good friends.

No, you don't have to reference a blend. You can reference a blend if you choose to do so. The functional phrase for the SOI for Bourbon Whiskey ends "and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type." So long as the Bourbons conform to the SOI for Bourbon Whiskey, you're good. You don't even need to submit a formula. A Formula (TTB F 5110.38 ) will clear the decks, and ensure legality if you don't mind waiting 30 days before submitting your label.

I've noticed that even among the big whiskey producers, there's quite a bit of misinformation regarding whiskey labeling and specifically age statements. Half of what people quote as gospel simply doesn't appear in the CFR's anywhere.

A very Happy Thanksgiving to you, too!

IMHO, it is not permissible to name a product a lesser type when it conforms to a greater type. I would stop right here on a normal day, but this is not a normal day...so permit me to burn the candle and argue my case.

When we see the words "shall be" the thing proclaimed is not optional. ...shall be designated as "straight" 5.22(b )(1)(iii)

In 5.22(b )(4) we see ...not less than 51 percent...shall be further designated...

because we see "shall be" we know that it is not optional to elevate the naming to the greater specificity of "blended ___ whisky" even though the product also meets the definition of the lesser "blended whisky."

(5) covers straight blends and it's very clear in all three sections that this type is available only to blends that do not conform to the SoI for straight whisky, i.e. different states, mixed types, one or more components from a mash not 51% of one type...

Check (5)(iii) more carefully. The second half is especially interesting: a blend of a single type (rye) which is from a single state can not be called "blended straight rye" because it already meets the definition for "straight rye" - you can call it "blended straight rye" but only if it includes harmless CFB...

Okay, now it's time for a drink containing caffeine and alcohol...

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Will

Presuming you're using 2yo or older, you're in the "straight" group.

From 5.22( b )(1)(iii) '"Straight whisky" includes mixtures of straight whiskies of the same type produced in the same State.'

My ship to address will be available as soon as your product is available ;o)

Good luck,

Will

You'll want to find a local supplier, but i'm using Myers Container LLC - 800.406.9377

Nick,

Don't even try. Nothing will take that out. We had a pickle factory nearby, and tried to clean a few of their totes...waste of time.

Now, we buy refurb totes with new alcohol rated food-grade "bottles" for around $200. Everything that touches the product is new.

Good luck,

Will