will

It's always helpful to mention your location, and in this case, the approx. dimensions of the tanks. Wikipedia says that area code 505 is in northwest New Mexico.

Whenever applying for formulas for spirits, it's important to:

(1) use form 5110.38

(2) follow the instructions for Item 5 (instructions are on the back of the form).

(3) supply only the information requested on the form...don't read more into the instructions than what the instructions say, and don't provide more information than what is required.

(4) don't offer more information than what the instructions ask for.

(5) and finally, don't give more information than you have to.

What does all of this mean?

First, it means you should only give the information that the form requires.

Second, the form does not ask for quantities, so don't provide them. If you provide them, then your formula is less flexible next year when the crop comes-in with tons more (or less) flavor than the original batch, and you ARE REQUIRED to make the product ACCORDING TO THE FORMULA...so don't make the formula more complicated than it needs to be.

And finally, it means you should not provide information that's not requested.

So, don't answer questions that are not asked.

I don't like plastic. I do like glass.

There's a world famous dive bar near the Sweetwater Distillery in Petaluma called the Buckhorn. This has been the site of many rallies of the students of the ADI distilling classes. It has a well deserved reputation as a place of merriment and laughter.

The Buckhorn is old enough to have both an on-sale and off-sale license, but hardly anyone buys off-sale there...so the bottles just sit forever. Many of those bottles are PET or PETE - no difference. Now, you remember the stories about the biker chick who could suck-start a Harley - some of the older bottles look like she took a hard toke on them. They're collapsed. Why does this happen? The story I've heard is that water molecules, being somewhat smaller than ethanol molecules, can actually escape through the plastic bottle...and this increases the ethanol concentration in the bottle - the proof increases. That does not sound like such a bad thing, but you have to ask yourself what else is happening in the bottle. What kind of exchange is taking place between the traces of petrochemicals in the polyethylene matrix and the stuff you're going to drink. Do you want to drink those petrochemicals, even if they're in trace amounts?

I'll be attending an eight-bells celebration today for a friend who was a victim of breast cancer. One has to ask how and why the incidence of this cancer is higher in Marin County than in other parts of the country. Is it because the people there are more affluent and prefer bottled water? Water bottled in PET, that is. What happens to trace amounts of chemicals that our bodies can't metabolize or discard? They get deposited into fatty tissues. (No comments about my brain, please!)

I think glass is safer, and it's what I choose to purchase.

That said, I do understand that some producers need to offer a "value priced" product, and arguments can be made that lower weight products take less energy to transport, and not all consumers are health or quality conscious. But I also know that one never has to apologize for quality.

Good luck,

Will

PVC is fine for water, but with solvents, it's not okay. Want your booze to taste like plastic? Just use PVC. Soft PVC is worse than the hard stuff, but if you can stick with PE and PP, you'll be much happier.

If you can avoid plastic all together, even better. Metals are superior, and rarely contribute flavor.

Good luck,

Will

Joe,

Thanks for speaking-up!

Absinthe Pete posted a few questions last week. He wants to know how to size the material for a steam coil, whether spiral or coil is better, etc.

Please help him if you can.

Will

John,

Getting the proof when sugar is present is really easy, but a bit time consuming. I'll go through it for the group - it's called doing a "burn-off." Cordials/liqueurs are very nice, don't exclude them - this is too easy.

From the Gauging Manual 27 CFR 30.31c...

Just use a small bench still to distill off "all" of the alcohol, then return the recovered volume to the original volume/temperature with distilled water, and proof in the usual manner.

This means taking a sample of a given volume - enough to run your hydrometer. Measure that by volume in a given vessel and note the temperature of the fluid. Then distill this until you've captured all the liquid. Be careful to watch the boil, and reduce the flame when the liquid starts to make soapy/sticky bubbles, then stop before it starts to scorch. Retained heat should be sufficient to "burn-off" all but the last mL or two of liquid. Now, allow this stuff to return to the starting temperature and transfer it to the original measuring vessel (which you've rinsed and drained), and add distilled water to return to the same volume. If you have any trouble with temperatures, condition everything to the same temperature using a water bath. After that, just use your hydrometer and thermometer as usual.

Scott,

Tell us how large a sample you need, and also, did you get the other part of the gizmo that can make accurate measurements when sugar is present (cordials)?

Will

Contact Mary Allen at MIV - (707) 963-2777 or (707) 963-4073 fax.

Has State told you that you need a bond?

Brad,

Tamper evidence is something consumers like. Your retailers will probably not accept spirits without it. Capsules will cost you only $0.03 each, and they can be custom printed in larger volumes. As GStone indicates, tamper seals are usually paper with a very aggressive adhesive. Someone somewhere was making a relatively attractive knock-off of the old federal seals that added a nostalgic look, and while they don't/won't look like your front and back labels, they look like they belong on the bottle.

Good luck,

Will

Are you sure you have the right size corks?? Sometimes even with the right fill height and you fill at 60F just the expansion of the alcohol putting pressure on the cork will cause it to rise. If the bottle is in the sun or seat of a car that is hot the contents will expand much more than you think it would. Coop

we fill at ambient.

I think that DetroitDistiller's point was similar, that by raising the temperature during fill, the volume is greater, fills up higher in the neck, and thus should make a slight vacuum when returned to lower temperature. by contrast, if i bottle at 30F, not only do i make my bottles sweat (which makes a big problem for labels as Drew points-out), but I also add a larger column of dense air above the product, and when the product expands due to heat, that extra volume of air will put my closure at a disadvantage.

The more important thing to consider if you're using a volumetric filler, is that volume is temperature dependent, and volumetric fillers can deliver less product at the higher temperature (if they're volume delivery based), and they can also deliver more volume (if they're time/viscosity based). The only way to calibrate is by weight. Drew does a bulk check, but we prefer to do an individual bottle check.

We had to find a different bottle to solve the problem we were having.

We do our QC check by weight. A 750ml bottle of 80pf product has a net weight of 712 grams, regardless of temperature. So we have a small scale that's good to 11 lbs or so, but also reads in grams. We weigh a batch of bottles, eight in our case, and write the weights on the bottles, then send them through the bottling line and weigh them again. The difference is the net weight.

Our first clue to a problem was that the variance in bottle tare weight was fairly large. Since the outside of the bottle is coming out of a precision mold, the difference in weight indicates a difference in internal volume, the heavier bottles having less space inside for the juice...and those were the bottles that blew their corks on hot days. We experimented with a few things, but heating the product prior to bottling was not one of them - clever, though. Our interim solution was sub-optimal. We referred to the mfgr's bottle drawing, which showed the fill height. We filled to that level, and although it might have been a few ml short, the remaining head space was sufficient to prevent product loss in the field.

Our new bottles share none of those qualities. The fill height is just at the bottom of the neck, and they can handle 115 F with no trouble.

Good luck,

Will

Chuck,

That single statement may be true, but who says you can't dilute the spirit in the belly of a little alembic and then distill it again? Might make for a nice tails cut...might even be the "secret sauce" in someone's recipe.

The point is that to qualify as VODKA, the spirit must reach a minimum of 190 proof somewhere in the processing, and no, John, it does not have to be the last step.

Will

Absolutely.

Let me be a bit more verbose (as usual).

In order to place the words "distilled by" on the bottle, as opposed to either "produced by" or "bottled by" you must distill the product at your DSP and it must run out of the moneypiece at 190 or higher.

Whether you do that or not, the regs also allow you to make one or more distillation passes, and the result of those passes does not have to be at 190+. If you did not do a 190 pass on your equipment at some point in the processing, however, your label may not say "distilled by" even though all the spirit ran off your still....it simply failed to make the definitions.

And finally, regarding Vodka, the definition requires an additional standard beyond simply flowing at 190 proof. 190 proof gets you neutral spirit a.k.a. alcohol. In order to qualify as Vodka, the stuff must also have been either (a ) distilled, (b ) processed with charcoal, or (c ) other materials, so that it is without distinctive (1) character, (2) aroma, (3) taste, or (4) color.

Good luck,

Will

Proving once again that this forum gets the attention professionals deserve.

For those who don't know, O-I is a major sponsor of this forum and the American Distilling Institute as a whole.

Thanks, cvelasqu, for your participation.

as i recall, 150,000 units is high even for a primary producer (glass bottle plant). i think the number is about 40,000 to 50,000 for a small run. that should fill two 40' conex containers. a two-day run is what the bottle plants want, so if it's a big fast producer, it might well be 150,000 bottles that they want to run. that's how many O-I will buy/produce and place into inventory to service all of us. The O-I partners may not be in a position to be holding inventory as O-I will do. One of the ways guys like O-I get small quantities is to put different bottle molds into each of six cavities in the bottle making machine. they all have to be using the same glass (like flint), but it gets them six different bottle types.

who did you import your bottles from? what does it look like? how much did you have to pay once it was on your dock?

...and no, Bill Owens is not the Owens in Owens-Illinois. and Jimmy Owens of Demptos Glass isn't part of O-I either.

Oops, sorry about that, I'll edit the earlier post.

All good points, but the most easily overlooked is that while you're working 18 hours per day, and making no money at all, your life and personal expenses go on. Don't forget to add that to your business plan...you need an income or your life will fall apart.

Paul's point number 7 is the most important. This business like all businesses is driven by sales. Sales is job one. Nothing happens unless something gets sold. If you're not good at sales, make sure someone on your team is.

Too often the focus is on equipment and process - the making of the product. That is essential, but sales is even more essential. After all, if you have a recipe and an order, you can get one of us who already has a license and equipment to make the product for you. Therefore the equipment and license, and all that stuff is secondary. Sales comes first.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but it will cost you less money having it burst now, before you spend your life's savings.

Will

You're correct, every contract is different, but there are some general guidelines.

Here in California, distributors of small-volume products like to see about 1/3 of the price they sell the product to the retailer for as their margin...so they want to pay 2/3 of that wholesale price as the price they buy it for. They're paid on the spread between what they pay for the product, and what they can sell it for. Once he buys the product, he's in control of the price from there on.

The retailer would like to get the same kind of 1/3 margin on their sale at retail, so they want to pay about 2/3 of their retail price...which will be "street price" not "MSRP." Like the wholesaler, they determine price, not you.

So, let's work backwards:

Let's say MSRP is $40, and let's guess that "street price" will be $35.

$35 * .66 = $23.10 - this is the price the retailer wants to pay for the product.

$23.10 * .66 = $15.25 - this is the price the wholesaler wants to pay for the product.

These figures allow each of your channel partners to "hit the numbers." In some cases, they'll take less margin, but rarely less than 25%.

$15.25 / $35 ~= 44% - this is your selling price as a percent of street price.

1/.44 = 2.3x -- this is the channel markup, it's an interesting number - it expresses how much the channel costs to operate as a function of your sell price.

1-.44 = .56 or 56% this is the channel margin - it's another interesting number...but I digress.

A more immediate question is: "what will the distributor do for the money?"

They do plenty, but they never do enough. You'll still have to be the leader of the sales and marketing effort. That said, they will:

(1) pay you for the product, so in 30 days, you'll have cash. That's important.

(2) they'll pay the state tax. Here in CA, it's $0.66 per bottle. That doesn't sound like much, but stay tuned.

(3) they'll do logistics for you. They will make the product appear at the retailer's location.

(4) they'll keep regular contact with your retailers, and get repeat orders.

(5) they'll provide scalability.

If you find a good distributor, he will make you feel like you're sitting on top of a Saturn 7.

Good luck,

Will

Lukas,

Spirits are generally not matured in barrels before a finishing run. Where did you get that?

What you suggest is exactly what's done. All the fermenting happens first, then all the distilling, then all the maturation, then the optional step of dilution to a desired proof (often done by taste to the blender's preference).

When bottled at cask strength, spirits are often labeled as such.

Keep reading,

Will

p.s. I use the term "generally" above simply to hedge my bets - I never - make that rarely - speak in absolutes, but I can't think of a single instance where a product is barreled and then distilled again as a matter of course...like it's part of the recipe. That would do exactly as you suspect - remove most of the nice things that the barrel did for the product.

Oooh - I want that!

Please someone, buy that for me!

I'll throw-down a second kudo for Mary Allen at MIV - she writes hundreds of bonds per year. (707) 963-2777 or (707) 963-4073 fax.

If I recall, an operations bond is a special case of a dsp with a winery.

You'll need a unit bond, and in (2) the amount of tax due on bottled product removed from bond is also part of that, but that's part of the "withdrawal" section of the unit bond. You'll have a component for stuff in production, storage, and processing (operations), and another part for stuff that's tax due.

Your operations coverage will be for whatever peak amount you'll have at any instant in time, and it's about the amount you intend to produce, not the amount of product your plant can produce.

You can start as small as $10k ops, and $1k withdrawal. The withdrawal part can be tricky. If you file only quarterly, then the withdrawal coverage must cover the tax load for that full reporting period. So $1k only covers 74PG (about 38 cases at 80pf). So every 38 cases you have to send-in your ~$1000 in tax, even if the quarter is not over.

CA DSPs may be required to post a bond, but not usually.

...and that new condenser will likely also allow you to do something like a spirit run as well. when we tried running light spirit through a CW still, it just blew hot vapor all over the place.

I have a theory that if CW would make the condenser just a bit longer, and run the vapor through the housing (that currently carries water), and run water through the inside tube (that currently carries vapor), then the existing condenser dimensions would have a better chance. this might mean using the cross-tubes only as mounting points instead of as water inlet/outlets.

At the other extreme, a distillery in Santa Cruz (now silent) was required to have a spill containment around the still, and it was to be pre-filled with water whenever the still was in operation. How silly is that?

For me, it's simply that these guys are like any inspector...if they don't find something to bitch about, then they were not needed in the first place...and they can't have that, can they?

Many of us toured some of the Kentucky distilleries, and not one of them had any type of spill containment - anywhere.

PJ,

There are plenty of low-cost or self-made stills in use by DSPs around the world. You do not have to spend pickup truck-fulls of money to get a still that will work. You will also find it difficult to make a still that's as nice and easy to use as a commercial still.

The key consideration is to size the still and wash system behind it so that you can make enough juice to crunch the monthly nut. Small is not better, but big may be unwieldy. The proper size is the size that will allow you to run your product with a few days to spare - so you can have a life.

Don't undersize your condenser. The brakes in your car have more horsepower than your engine, and the condenser should have more capacity (in BTU) than the kettle.

Also, beware of reflux systems that easily will allow condensed liquid to fall back into the kettle in large gushes - this will cause surge boiling that may cause your machine to puke...and that can cause the bad thing.

Will