will

First of all, that's not an especially good design,

Second, this forum is about legal, licensed distilling, and it's unlawful for you to build that still and operate it in the USA.

...and finally, no, there's not a cap on the end. a "reflux condenser" is called a dephlegmator. there are two types, closed and open. open types are used where the distillate is taken-off as a liquid, because without venting, even with 100% condensation, the expansion of the air above the liquid in the kettle would cause the system pressure to rise, causing one of those things the TTB worries about: an explosion.

read more books and

...go and sin no more!

will

Thanks, Bryan...

DG Blackburn - ADI Staff member with his ear to the ground - forwarded the above press release to me at about noon today, so I called Frank Coleman at DISCUS to find-out what's up.

It's $500 per year for facilities making less than 40,000 cases (9 liter) per year.

Legislation and regulation affect producers large and small. ADI members have made great strides toward broadening privileges enjoyed by small distilleries in several states. Some of them are on the DISCUS Advisory Council...a new special interest group within DISCUS. Please note that DISCUS is a very different organization than ADI. DISCUS focuses on politics while ADI focuses on the craft.

Consider arguments by members who are now part of the Advisory Council who earlier posted their arguments here: http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=803

...and if you're interested, contact Frank Coleman at the phone number above, and he will send you an invitation letter that reads like this:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for your interest in a new affiliate membership opportunity for Craft Distillers offered by the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States, Inc. (DISCUS). This membership is available to small distillers selling less than 40,000 nine-liter cases annually.

The Distilled Spirits Council is a national trade association representing producers and marketers of distilled spirits sold in the United States. Since the repeal of Prohibition, DISCUS and its predecessor organizations have advocated on behalf of the distilled spirits industry on legislative, regulatory and public affairs issues that impact the industry, its consumers, and its business partners in the hospitality industry. The association’s team of lobbyists, lawyers, scientists, economists and public affairs professionals works to support public policy that ensures and expands fair and equitable treatment of distilled spirits products and prevents burdensome taxation.

We invite you to join us in playing a major part in educating federal, state and local officials about the positive and responsible role that distillers, large and small, make in communities across the country. As a small business owner, employer and member of the hospitality industry, you have a unique perspective on issues affecting the industry and can play an important role in helping to pursue positive public policy.

The benefits of the Craft Distillers Membership include:

· The opportunity to participate with the nation’s largest distillers in fighting taxes and affecting state and federal public policy integral to our industry;

· An exclusive monthly electronic newsletter on emerging state and federal public policies and tax issues affecting the distilled spirits industry prepared by our legislative field representatives;

· Grassroots “Action Alerts” on state and federal legislative issues that require urgent action from our team of legislative and public affairs staff;

· A copy of the Summary of State Laws & Regulations Relating to Distilled Spirits, a compendium of beverage alcohol regulations covering trade practices, promotional activities, retail sales channels, taxes, licenses, and other areas of state regulation in DVD format ($150 value);

· An opportunity to participate in a DISCUS-organized annual Public Affairs Conference, featuring Congressional visits and a reception showcasing your products on Capitol Hill;

· Opportunities to showcase your brands at DISCUS-sponsored tastings events for public officials and opinion leaders across the country;

· Access to the annual distilled spirits industry’s Issue Briefing, Economic Review and Forecast conference call with key business media and Wall Street analysts;

· A free legal or regulatory consultation each year;

· A free international trade consultation each year;

· An opportunity to showcase your brands in emerging international markets at DISCUS-sponsored product promotion events throughout the world;

· An ability to participate in DISPAC, the distilled spirits industry’s political action committee that supports candidates who have demonstrated a commitment to the industry;

· An opportunity to support and participate in the “Spirit of Mount Vernon,” including an annual VIP reception and dinner gala at George Washington’s Historic Mount Vernon Estate with industry partners, Members of Congress, and representatives from the diplomatic corps;

· An opportunity to participate in a briefing on the DISCUS Code of Responsible Practices for Beverage Alcohol Advertising and Marketing with Council experts.

We appreciate your consideration in joining the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States. With your support, we will continue our efforts to ensure fair and equitable treatment for distillers, uphold our strong commitment to responsible consumption of our products, and promote our proud heritage.

I would also like to note that Fritz Maytag of Anchor Distilling in San Francisco is the chairman of our Craft Distiller Advisory Council, and we are honored by his leadership.

The annual dues for the Craft Distiller Membership are $500 and final membership will be granted after approval by our Board of Directors. Please return the attached membership application with a check for your annual dues to the address below:

Distilled Spirits Council

1250 Eye Street, NW S. 400

Washington, DC 20005

Attn: Cheryl Hecht

Best regards,

Peter H. Cressy

President and CEO

My how things can change in only a few weeks...

The story continues here: http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=880

(at $500 per year)

Will

I agree. The juxtaposition of the trailing S in Woods and the leading S in Spirits puts a bump in the pronunciation. "The North Woods Distillery" flows well, and indicates what you are rather than what you make.

Charlie,

Might be worth an experiment, especially if funded by a company with lots of money to throw around.

...and you already understand that you would not be able to call the stuff whiskey, right? (HDPE is not oak - might work for brandy, rum, etc.) Wood added to vessels is flavoring, which must be disclosed on the label, and, HDPE is likely to be more expensive than oak barrels...though it might last longer too.

Good luck,

Will

Guy,

This might be a state thing rather than a TTB thing. I know we're some kind of winery from the TTB perspective, but don't need to be in CA (though we are anyway).

Will

The COLA link is what I was looking for. Thanks....

Regarding the proof, unless I'm missing something, I understand the 'less than 160' for the whiskeys. That's not the problem. That range is doable either type of still.

The question comes up with their designation:

"(a) Class 1; neutral spirits or alcohol

(2) “Grain spirits” are neutral spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain and stored in oak containers."

which would mean we need to run a good column to get that level, which we don't want to do.

However, with Wasmund's Rye Spirits, they explain in their pdf product statement they run it at just under 160 in a pot still. But in order to make a clear rye spirit, it needs to be run through carbon filtering after short-aging, and that puts it under the subtractive issue in the TTB of removing color. Unless you simply flash it at the oak as Wasmund's states, "Less than 30 days", so it never picks up anything.

More confusion, they state----"...bottled at barrel strength prior to aging..." When it's bottled it no longer ages, so how do you bottle it then age it?

Sounds like we just need to make a product the way we want, then find out how they want it labeled.

And I just found out in order to do our brandies we need a winery permit (seperate building area also) in order to produce the wine which will only be used to make brandy.

Wasmund likely means that it's bottled at cask strength, and it's not aged. His because of his process, he may be in the last class defined in the CFRs - Spirit Specialty.

The class you want to be in is Whisky - you can use charcoal prior to storage, just as Jack Daniels does. You do not have to use new oak, and you can store it for as little time as you like, but you will have to declare any period under four years. If you use any adjuncts such as oak chips, you'll be back in Spirit Specialty land.

Class 2; whisky. “Whisky” is an alcoholic distillate from a fermented mash of grain produced at less than 190° proof in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to whisky, stored in oak containers (except that corn whisky need not be so stored), and bottled at not less than 80° proof, and also includes mixtures of such distillates for which no specific standards of identity are prescribed.

Remember, this advice is worth what you paid for it.

Will

Will---Looked at the COLA site, doesn't show what I wanted to see and that's the digital label itself. Thanks for the link though.

Click on "Printable Version"

Porter,

You can browse COLAs at COLA Registry

...but read the CFRs again - Standards of Identity at 27 CFR 5.22

Note the range allowed for proof at time of distillation for various types.

Will

Porter,

The Spirit BAM has been unavailable for some time, but it's still on the TTB site at:

Spirit BAM though you'll have to assemble it yourself.

190 proof is a dividing line in the CFRs. Anything that runs at 190pf or higher will be Alcohol.

Any Alcohol that has been further processed by additional distillation or treatment with charcoal may be Vodka if it fits the four requirements stated, BUT anything that has been distilled to 190 or higher may not be anything else, only Alcohol or Vodka...it can't be a Rye Spirit. It might be a Distilled Spirit Specialty (the catch-all), or used in a formulated product.

As a refinement of earlier posts, stills are divided into two broad classes: Charge and Continuous, and each can have a column or not. Continuous stills don't have a kettle, while charge stills do...and charge stills can have columns...and some simple "strippers" are continuous stills without a column. That's a total of four types of stills. Stripper, Continuous Column, Whiskey/Cognac, and Charged Column. A charged column still may or may not make 190 proof based on how many plates it has, how hard you push vapor off the kettle, how much cooling you can apply to the dephlegmator, and how much ethanol remains in the kettle.

There are plenty of alternatives to vodka for creating cash flow while your spirit matures. Read the BAM and CFRs again. To qualify as whiskey, your grain mash must run at less than 160 proof. If you store it in used containers, it can be Whiskey Distilled from Rye Mash...and there's no minimum on how long it's stored, but if less than 4 years, you'll have to say so. This means you can make "Whiskey from Rye Mash, Distilled in 2010, and aged less than four months in used Bourbon Barrels." Note, however, that once you've used them for your product for whatever length of time, your Bourbon Barrels may no longer be Bourbon Barrels...but they're still Used Barrels.

Wes,

at $10 to $20 used for 2 barrels, consider these:

http://www.winebusiness.com/UsedEquipment/PostingDetail.cfm?listingId=41990

http://www.winebusiness.com/usedequipment/PostingDetail.cfm?listingId=41657

http://www.winebusiness.com/usedequipment/PostingDetail.cfm?listingId=41615

there are guys here in wine country who refurb these for $41 each - powder coated. new they're around $80 if i can find the guy. ...examples:

http://www.rmswinebarrelracks.com/wine-barrel-racks/

http://www.westernsquare.com/wine_and_vine/steel_brack.html

http://www.westernsquare.com/artwork/warehouse1.jpg

the great thing is flexibility - no fixed ricks, just open warehouse on concrete. use a standard forklift, stack 4 high here or 6 high in non-earthquake areas.. 8 to 12 barrels in 16 sqft.

be the first on your block to buck tradition and go modular,

...your friendly "agile business" consultant.

Will

There's a sticky section of the forum where we are trying to accumulate that sort of information, so please, Scott and Lee, make sure you post your results HERE you can go back and re-edit your post any time, so we can get a real-time view of the workload at TTB.

Scott, do you think that calling every week accelerated the process for you?

Lee, it can only get better...mine took 165 days. Let's get something else in the pot for you...at least you will have something to pour and take orders with.

$40 and he pays shipping, right?

Looks great on the website. Good bottle, great label, can almost smell it. Which reminds me...

We're currently working on a new technology that will allow websites to broadcast the aroma of their products over the internet. It's working here at our place, but we're having difficulty in some locations. We will let you know when it's working.

Seriously, though. I notice your website uses the term Bourbon-style, while the bottle says nothing about Bourbon. Clearly, the product does not meet the standards of identity for Bourbon, but have you considered the term: Whiskey from a Bourbon Mash? You may meet that standard.

Nicely done,

Will

exactly the type of mis-information we hope to avoid here...that dilution calculator is simply wrong. any commercial distiller who does his process in that manner will be paying large fines.

if you don't have a basic permit, ask questions, but please don't act like you know the answers.

will

One of the challenges is to understand and deal with contraction. The amount of water required to reach a given volume reaches a maximum at 121 proof. Your approach does correctly determine the excess volume of water added, but refer to the tables to find the solution.

Let's accept the notion that we do have remaining spirit (at 135 proof, not 145), so yes, let's add some.

Note that the intermediate result (present proof) is not relevant to the underlying question: "how do we fix it?"

Alcohol reduces the solubility of minerals. Mineral rich (but perhaps really good tasting) water added to alcohol can become cloudy when the minerals come out of solution. This can leave a ring of precipitate on the bottom of the bottle. Mineral solubility is also reduced at lower temperatures, so a cold test is a good idea. Another good reason to condition your water is to remove stuff like chlorine, chloramines, fluoride compounds, etc. from your city water, as you may not want to pass everything on to the consumer.

Two cognac-style brandy producers here in the west claim that they capture rain water to use in their process. I tried that, but it got all stinky and funky....probably from the seagull "nutrient" that came down. Rather nasty, actually. Don't know what those guys do to make their catch water usable.

http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com/IS/product_nospecs.aspx-am_en-3902

this is a metallic air-driven pump, so in most situations, it would be considered explosion proof. it should be grounded. this is the type of pump often used for fluid transfer by many of us. also available in plastic at lower cost. there are also many larger pumps of the same type. you'll see these all over the place in the food and beverage industries.

will

Nope.

(wait 'till you hear the price!)

Guessing you won't join either.

Will

Brad,

If you have 1000 gallons of "bubbling crude" - Texas Tea (Beverly Hillbillys) in a non-ventilated space, you will get mold. CO2 is heavier than air (mostly N2 and O2) while water vapor is lighter. CO2 will hang around near the floor (which is why the Coop's bathroom vent is near the floor), while water vapor will head for the ceiling. Most industrial spaces already have sufficient ventilation, but if you're rolling your own, a few of those whirly-gig vents are a good start. Ventilation is not a bad thing.

Will

Paul,

Each pound of fermentable sugar will produce about 1/2 LB of C02 (and 1/2 LB of alcohol). 1/2LB is about 227 grams, and the molecular weight of CO2 is 12+16+16=44. According to the ideal gas law, one Mole of any gas occupies about 22.4 liters of volume at standard temperature and pressure. Each 1/2 LB of CO2 = 227/44 moles, or about 5 moles, or about 115 liters of space. One cubic foot is about 28 liters, so in general you produce about 4 cubic feet of CO2 for every pound of fermentable sugar. If you have 400 LBS eq. sugars in each fermenter, and they're on a 5 day cycle, then you're producing 400 x 4 = 1600 CU Ft CO2 every day, just over 1 cu ft per minute. OSHA guidelines are 5000 ppm (.5%) for an 8 hour day. .5% is one part in 200, so you need a minimum of 200 cu ft/min outside air to mix with the newly produced CO2. This may be in addition to other ventilation requirements for habitation. Also, moisture control may be a larger consideration in the brew house.

Will

a few comments on what Ralph says...

(1) overnight storage in new charred oak containers makes them no longer new, so since you're paying the money, you might as well use the barrel.

(2) http://ttb.gov/rulings/87-3.htm

Treatment with wood. The words "colored and flavored with wood (insert chips, slabs, etc., as appropriate)" shall be stated as a part of the class and type designation for whisky and brandy treated, in whole or in part, with wood through percolations, or otherwise, during distillation or storage, other than through contact with the oak container. (from 27cfr5.39)

Ralph is correct - disclosure to the consumer pretty-much covers you, and a formula is probably required.

will

Don't be concerned with the "tone" of some of the answers you'll get. I get my nose out of joint too. Tomorrow well all forget...

I'm not the TTB, but my take on it is that if you depart from the normal production processes such as aging in stainless with chips of wood, then be prepared to produce a formula, and make statements on the bottle.

It won't be whiskey when you're done, unless it has been stored in oak, and if it has been treated with other flavorings, even infused with the same type of wood that it was stored in, that fact will have to appear as part of the labeling. You can't pull the wool over the eyes of the consumer.

I think that the "distilled n times" claims are somewhat truthful in many cases. I'm just not convinced that each pass did anything.

Will

when a column takes a vapor to 95%, the wash may be well below 5% (even below 1%) depending upon the performance of the column, so it does not follow directly that there's lots of alcohol in the kettle to worry about. no, it's not customary to add that stillage to the next wash because that would simply dilute the wash even more.

if the kettle/column combination is not able to continue to deliver spirit at 95% midway through the run, then one may well choose to capture that spirit in a second container, and add that back to the next kettle charge....but that's a band-aid for a different problem...or a different limitation of the equipment.

i don't know of a TTB definition of "distilled x times," but no, that's not "distilled 7 times" - it's distilled only once.

in the case of a four-column continuous still, one is free to advertise that spirit as "distilled 4 times" even though not all the spirit will have passed through all four of the columns.

keep digging - keep reading,

will

just for starters, let's do the math:

50 g @ 15% = 7.5 g pure alcohol. bottled at 80 proof, that's ~18.75 gallons. at ~5 bottles per gallon, it's ~94 bottles. even at $15 per bottle, it's nothing to sneer at. much more fun with a bigger still, though.

YMMV - those numbers are theoretical, not actual, but never underestimate the power of compound interest, nor the power of dilution.

a properly operating vodka operation will not waste much alcohol, but the trick is in understanding how a column will perform successive "distillations" in each of the plates on the way up, thus most of the alcohol in the wash is available for product. it's all about the reflux. often, multiple distillations are performed on the way to 190 proof...at least two: stripping and finishing.

the TTB definitions carefully and clearly define the nature and character of the classes and types of products. note that "alcohol" and "vodka" are different. both are made from any material and taken from the still at 190pf or higher, but vodka has four additional constraints: it must be free of (1) character, (2) aroma, (3) taste, and (4) color. (21cfr5.22(1)a). except for color, these definitions are subjective, and therefore somewhat broad.

will