Brothers Vilgalys Spirits

No I tried that too, you have to wait for the DSP to be approved to even register for the online thing. Thanks for the info y'all. Looks like it's back to "Hurry up and wait" over here.

I just got my DSP at the end of August, and so now we're underway in the Forumlas / COLAs online business. I'm just curious how long this has taken for anyone else who's recently gone through the process? Here's the timeline so far: August 7th: TTB Agent requests a bond correction, says there are no other issues. Mad scramble to take care of that. August 31st: DSP approved! We used permits online, took about 10 weeks. Put in for the username / password for TTB online. Sept 7th: Username and password approved. Formula is submitted right away, but I discover that COLAs have to wait for that to be approved first (someone please tell me if I have this wrong!). Today Sept 14th: So far nothing, although I am probably being impatient. Also, it seems like this stuff always happens late on a Friday so perhaps there will be a nice surprise this afternoon.

Just over 2 weeks. I'm not aging any spirits, so I left "warehouse" off the form (and the amount of the bond). Apparently I still qualify as a warehouseman so I should have included that. We had to execute a new bond under a different surety. Would have been quicker, but somehow USPS lost the package over what amounts to a 45 minute drive. Really only takes a while because the TTB needs physical copies with ink signatures and corporate seals -- the new bond itself was ready in a couple days.

Congrats! (We got our DSP today too!)

Just got our DSP today! Filed on June 5th, approved August 31st. Had a bit of a snafu with our bond form, which was first for the wrong amount, and then a physical copy vanished into USPS abyss. Quite happy to have it now!

I'd like to second this request, we're closing in on our DSP (just fixing bond stuff) and would like to nail down a good supplier for this. In my case, I'll be blending a liqueur w/ GNS so not actually distilling anything (not until we got the $$$ anyway). When buying GNS in bulk, do most of you filter / redistill it? Does it tend to be pretty harsh in terms of congeners and flavor? Any quality-based recommendations? For product samples, I've been using Everclear to blend this stuff and that works pretty well for what it is.

At least I'm not the only one who's run up against this. We're probably also going to try and get a variance on the TTB application, as I think fire safety is arguably more important than picking a specific type of lock. "Storeroom-type" locks are what we're probably going to put in, they stay locked from the outside all the time. This one also has a key-capture feature, and I'm trying to get an answer about how many pins the lock has: http://www.iqhardware.com/yale_yh_cs_79_cascade_storeroom_lever.asp Plan B is to padlock the inside door with big letters that say "This door to remain unlocked when the building is occupied." It's not quite up to code fire-wise, as you're supposed to be able to unlock it from the inside, but we might be able to come to terms with our fire inspector if the TTB won't budge.

Thanks for the responses! I should be more specific about the space we're working with -- essentially we have one of those concrete box industrial condos with an office and bathroom in the front corner. I'm planning on painting a line dividing the bonded space from the regular space, so that I'll have a shipping/receiving area next to the loading dock. Even padlocking the door from the office to the bonded space, we run into the issue of fire egress because our only fire exit is through that door. And we can't create a situation where someone could potentially be locked inside. I do have a security system on the way with motion detectors and those doodads that detect when a door is open.

We've run into a catch-22 beween the security requirements and our fire code. The TTB has some pretty specific requirements about padlocks to go on entrances to storage areas, or for large tanks. They go into detail about what sort of padlocks to get here: http://ecfr.gpoacces...1.1.15.7.171.12 (CFR 27.19.192) However as our locksmith and local fire inspector both pointed out, we can't padlock our front door because of the potential for someone to be locked inside. Our facility has a roll-up door and a side office door. The only fire exit is through that front door. The locksmith recommended a storeroom-type lock that locks automatically and always requires a key to open. I'm also planning on installing a security system. Has anyone else had experience finding a compromise here? I'm intending to specify a variance on the application explaining my "unusual" lock, but wanted to check and see what y'alls thought are about this were. Thanks! Rim Vilgalys

Lol, not a problem. Had a lot of interesting interpretations of 'Vilgalys', haven't had that one yet

Your best bet is to approach your local fire inspector directly and ask what they want to see. They're the ones who actually interpret and sign off on this anyway, and it's their job to know the code inside and out, so getting them involved now will help you when it comes time to actually get the inspection done. Sprinklers aren't a strict necessity, but they do increase how much you can store in the building (so do fire safety cabinets). I've had them out to look at our site twice, explained that we needed to save money however possible, and gotten some good answers both times. DISCUS also has a fire regs thing here but they cost cash moneys: http://www.discus.org/issues/fireprotection.asp

Bringing this topic back with an extra question: Our facility only has one entry/exit, which is the front door (two if you count the roll-up door to the loading dock). We can't padlock the door, because it's also the fire exit. The locksmith recommended a storeroom lock that requires a key to get in, but anyone can get out. What's the usual recourse here? Anyone run into trouble over an "unusual" lock like this?

Zoning requirements are determined and managed by your local city or county governments, not the state. It's good that you're thinking about this early. Go talk to your local officials, sometimes there are exceptions for certain types of businesses - for example, my city has an exception written in for microbreweries, allowing them to locate downtown. You may also be able to apply for a variance if you're wedded to a particular location for some reason, but those aren't guaranteed.

I'm just relaying what a trademark attorney has told me, but I should be explicit that I'm not an attorney and this is definitely guy-on-the-internet level advice. Anyway, you can't file for a trademark until you're actually selling something under that trade name, meaning that you need to have actual business interests to protect. The name of your business is only important if you're using as the trade name you're selling under. So if you company is called "Fred LLC" but your brand is called "Superawesome Whiskey", you only trademark the "Superawesome Whiskey" design. The trademark only applies to the text and design of the brand and logo not the whole label. Trademarks are industry-specific up to a point, but there can't be any basis for confusion (a small business that sells say, "Superawesome Shampoo", is not likely a problem, provided they're using a distinctly different font and style. Naming your product something like "Google Bourbon" is still a problem). Searching on the website will give you an indication of what's already trademarked, but you should ultimately still speak to a trademark attorney about anything you're intending to do. They can do a thorough search for any other trademarks that may be an issue, can help you with the paperwork, and will be able to advise you better about how to protect that trademark if any issues arise. If your brand involves a well-known person's name, some sort of local history, or anything like that, you should definitely talk to an attorney before having anything designed. Dave, if I'm wrong about any of that, can you be a bit more specific about what I've got wrong?

You can do a preliminary search for trademarks yourself on the USPTO website: http://www.uspto.gov/ There may be trademarks in unrelated industries, but that should be okay so long as there's not a basis for confusion. Talk to a lawyer about whatever you intend to trademark when you're closer to getting underway. In order to actually apply for a trademark, you need to be selling something with that label (hence, "trade"). You should also be familiar with the TTB labeling guidelines before having anything designed for your bottles.

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you still need a DSP to buy spirits in bulk and then make beverages, regardless of the origins and tax status of those spirits. Suppliers can't sell you bulk spirits unless you have the appropriate licenses, and those bulk spirits (taxpaid or not) can only be stored on a DSP's bonded premise until bottled and shipped. Looking at the code, it's in CFR 27, subpart E (specifically 27.1.82) I'll add that I really do want a still (like oh, so badly) but since we're focusing on one product with a neutral spirit base, and given the cost of a production still, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to start with one right away. Good news is the kitchen folks are very nice and may be willing to set aside bonded space specifically for spirits. We'll see where that goes.

TTB says this is a no-go, unless the kitchen is willing to set aside space dedicated to spirits (and no other purpose). Alternating proprietorships have to be with another DSP. Pretty much what I expected to hear, but at least now its official.

Thanks that cleared up quite a bit!

So we've reached the point where we're just trying to raise seed money, and of course the biggest cost there is the facility itself. We've flirted with the idea of contract manufacturing, but I haven't come across any facilities nearby that would be a good fit. However there are several commercial kitchens in the area that lease time and space for very good prices, which would drastically cut down the amount of money we'd need to raise to get underway. My product is a spiced honey liqueur, and I'll be blending it with bulk NGS anyway (adding a still when we can afford one), so there's no "practical" reason why a kitchen wouldn't work. Does anybody know how much of a quagmire it would be to lease time and space in a commercial kitchen? My understanding is that the kitchen would have to apply for the DSP, while I would need a wholesalers permit to warehouse the spirits. Does that mean that whatever space is used for spirits couldn't be used for regular kitchen stuff? Would they also need to partition off a section? I'm imagining that this would be very difficult to make work, but it would save me a ton of money. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Best of luck with your fundraising! We're in the same phase down in Durham, NC. Where in the VA mountains are you exactly? I was born in Blacksburg, absolutely love that whole area.

Missouri is one of the only states that explicitly allows hobby distilling with no permit: http://moga.mo.gov/statutes/C300-399/3110000055.HTM You'd still be in violation of the Federal laws though. Educational institutions are also allowed to operate stills, though they can't be "for consumption."

I certainly agree if bottle sales become legal here, the decision is a no-brainer. I guess I'm really trying to figure out if the location would be worth it in case the law doesn't pass. I suppose I've got some political science-ing to do

I live in North Carolina, a 'total control' state. Currently all distribution and retail is controlled by the state. There's a law being driven by a distiller in Asheville (Troy and Sons) that would allow bottle sales and samples in the storefront. It will be voted on again in the spring. It's hard to say what it's chances are before the election this fall. I'm at the point where I've begun looking at various facilities, and I'm somewhat caught in the middle between a "prime" location downtown, which is pretty reasonably priced. It's close to bars and restaurants, farmer's market, etc. I've also seen several places in industrial areas (also really ghetto areas) which are rock-bottom-cheap. The difference in price ends up being about $10k a year in rent. How important are store-front bottle sales and samples to most start-ups? My instincts tell me they are *everything* and the swanky place downtown is likely worth the extra investment for brand exposure, community involvement, etc, etc. My next plan is to get some more concrete data about how much foot traffic I could expect, demographics for the neighborhood and so on. In the mean time I'd be curious what everyone's thoughts or experiences were. Thanks! Thanks! Rim Vilgalys Brothers Vilgalys Spirits http://www.facebook....VilgalysSpirits

When I was a small child, a rogue gang of diaphragm pumps abducted my family and I've never seen them since... Actually, it's not that I have anything against pumps, I'm just not sure that I'll need them since all I'm doing is blending and bottling (I'm making a spiced honey liqueur called Krupnikas). And when I was imagining the simplest way to set up my operations, this is what came to mind. I certainly won't be using any carbon filters until later on -- I hope to eventually be distilling my own spirits, but for the beginning I'll just be buying NGS. Durham, NC has a lot of eco-conscious consumers who would respond well to something like this, and it may help me get financing from "green energy" groups as well. There is still the issue of how I'll be dealing with the sediment (see my other thread) but if I do end up filtering it will be as minimally as possible. The other problem is how to get a 55 gallon drum of NGS up to the top of this contraption. A lot of that may depend on what kind of site we end up with.

So the product I'll be making ends up with a layer of sediment which collects at the bottom. It's basically bits of whole spices leftover from the reduction that's blended into the liqueur. I personally like to leave them in because it makes the bottle look like a magic potion, but I'm going to want a clear product when it comes time to go on shelves. As far as the best way to do that, I'm still unsure. The sediment will settle out naturally over a day or two, but I'd rather be able to bottle it right away without buying another tank for that (although another tank might be cheaper than the other two options). I really like the idea of an "unfiltered" product. I'm also concerned that filtering might eliminate some of the flavors along with the solids. Is there anyone who's using a centrifuge to remove sediment? Any thoughts on which ones would be best for a smaller blending operation? Thanks for any advice on this!