Classick

If you are selling rectified spirits to bars, you may lose out on this business. However, if you are selling directly to consumers, which is a much bigger market, this will likely help your product.

If a consumer really liked a rectified spirit, that individual would rather go to Costco or Safeway to buy a bottle of it rather than go to the bar and pay 10x the price for one drink. This could also open the markets to new tastes by exposing consumers to the rectified beverages...in fact, this may be a boon because the bar has done free marketing and some trial sales already for you.

If you are selling rectified spirits to bars, you may lose out on this business. However, if you are selling directly to consumers, which is a much bigger market, this will likely help your product.

If a consumer really liked a rectified spirit, that individual would rather go to Costco or Safeway to buy a bottle of it rather than go to the bar and pay 10x the price for one drink. This could also open the markets to new tastes by exposing consumers to the rectified beverages...in fact, this may be a boon because the bar has done free marketing and some trial sales already for you.

the problem is, here in california.. we are not allowed to sell direct to customers, retail, or people that come in for tastings. If you have a brandy-makers license, you can sell your fruit based spirits directly to retailers and customers, but cannot "legally" taste them on it, they have to buy on smell evaluation alone.

I think what Arthur has been trying to point out here is this.

We california producers are not mad at bars and restaurants for creating concoctions that will help them sell craft drinks.. We are mad at the state for pushing through, in record time i might add, legislation that directly and flagrantly helps a relatively new business population ( bars and rests looking to make their own infusions) to sell their products, while we the craft spirits producers, who have/are slowly and steadily fought to preserve, grow,and indeed improve upon the craft spirits industry here in our state, fighting with one if not both hands tied behind our backs.

When we started our distillery here in the Bay Area 12 years ago, we were one of 6, maybe 7 micro distilleries on the whole west coast.. now there are 28 in California alone, and growing.. and yet for that whole time, we have been denied the ability to dell directly to retailers, bars/restaurants, and hell even people that just want to wander in, maybe do some tasting, and would love to walk out with a bottle but cant. Arthurs argument is that while we have been trying convince the state to give our industry even the same ability as the craft wine and beer industries have here, along comes this state legislation that allows ABC bar to just go an mix their own unique product ( the same as a rectifier would) and sell it basically tax free, even without permits, thus taking away margin from legal rectifiers.

I love cocktails, i am in SF quite often, and really enjoy seeing and tasting all of the great mixtures the individual bars come up with.. it really fosters ingenuity... but where is the love for the craft spirits producers? why cannot we get similar legislation fast-tracked and approved so that we may enjoy the same success?

where is the business justification for this?

Hey Colorado Distillers,

Im headed out to Breckenridge between the 8th and 13th of January.. I figured i would post up in advance this time and see if anyone was up for a visit from a fellow distiller.

I think i remember there being a few of ya close by. I will have a rental car ( hopefully 4x4) so i can make a trek to come visit, but maybe an hour or so radius?

Look forward to some tasting! Ill be bringing some of my stuff with me too i hope.

Todd, at Lake Distilling we do private label for other people or just sell straight grain neutral spirits, the most difficult thing you need to do is have a DSP so we can do a transfer in bond, or you will need to pay the tax. The rest amounts you just tell us what you want and we work together to give it to you. If you want to discuss in more detail write to lakedistilling@gmail.com or give me a call at 315.730.6309

David Smith

We also offer contract distilling services here in California, specializing in the production of rum, gin, vodka, and fruit brandies.

We have numerous clients if you'd like references.

Please contact service[at]essentialspirits[dot]com if you would like to discuss further.

Cheers

oh right.. good question. I always forget there are distillers out there that have to make stripping runs (our still is single pass)

Recently I ran a post called "Slightly continuous fermentation" Here is another of my techniques that I think is "outside the square" that others may wish to adopt if there are no negative replies.

Normally a whisky wash pot still can only be filled to around 85% of its volume to allow for foaming when boiling first starts.

Recently I produced too much wash to fit into the still and I didn't want to waste it.

About an hour after the foam died down I started to very slowly pump the surplus wash into the still through the drain valve.

Also as the spirit was evaporating out, the level in the pot kept dropping so I kept adding wash. There was only a slight amount of foam produced as I added wash.

There is a glass inspection hole in my still to watch what is happening.

I normally put 500 Litres in, but with this method I can do at least 650 litres of wash and get a much higher output of low wines and alcohol

PeteB

Pete did you notice any discernible difference in the distillate of the "semi continuous " batch vs any previous batches you did? I think the only thing i might be concerned with was keeping the wort that was in the initial 500 liters in for a longer amount of time than it would have taken to "naturally" distill out all the alcohol. If i had to guess i might think that some lower wine notes would creep into the final product as a result.

Kudos to you though for the innovation and not being afraid to try something "new"

Pardon me of piping in late, we were teaching a distilling class last week and I didn't get as much time with my email as usual.

One alternate solution, slightly mentioned by Mike, is to do contract distilling for these wineries. Why pay them when they can pay you?

One of the local distilleries makes 80% of their income off of contract distilling. In Napa Valley, there are any number of wineries who are delighted to add grappa to their portfolio. The distillery files a dba for the product so that the label even reads "distilled by XYZ winery" (instead of the distillery name), and charges the cost of the filing the dba and COLA back to the winery (at a modest profit). Income from each batch is guaranteed. It keeps the doors open, the lights on and you don't have the hassle and risk with selling.

Cheers,

Drew

Drew should you interact with any of these wineries, please feel free to send them my way... I have been using this business model for wineries up and down california for the last, oh 8 years And yes.. it works quite well... its a pain in the butt making grappa, but its a labor of love for sure

great problem solving here guys. A true community! Thanks for the contributions.

We don't, at least not yet. We have Quickbooks for manufacturing/wholesale only right now. Is that what you use?

Its one of the software options i was looking at, and pretty much decided on, but we have so few tasting room visits, we just work with cash. We have a friend with a brewery though, and im pretty sure thats the program he uses with great success.

Sorry if thats not much help.

I think you have to look at how much $ the tasting room will bring in to justify the cost of a program like that... or you might be able to upgrade your wholesale version to include the POS.. speak with a quicken rep about that.

It also offers credit card processing, returns, inventory tracking, etc. I believe they have a demo on the website you can checkout

do you have quickbooks POS? that would certainly help.. there are other free POS software out there, but often times you get what you pay for

we use 20% in our gas-fire Alambic

Gotcha.

FYI, according to TTB.. "Pommace" is grape pommace by default... if you are talking about pommace/must from any other fruit, you have to designate it as such "Apple Pommace, Pear Pommace" etc.

I happen to agree with you, totally. The reason why I put the rule of thumb example on my statement is, simply because the TTB ask me how many pounds of grape skins I was using per and how many gallons of water I was using to extract the spirit. I think that, the example gives a pretty accurate explanation. As far as wineries being grateful that you are taking their trash in some countries like Italy the so called trash has become a very lucrative commodity. Frankly I believe we are not doing to bad in America either, however if things would get really bad it makes an excellent feed for steers and milk cows etc.. But if that is too much trouble you can pile them up in an unseen corner of your property dump some lime on it and let it mature really good and when you get done but it in your bobcat and spread it back in the vineyard with a manure sprayer, you will not find a better source of organic fertilizer than that. Knowing all this, why should any winery give you this product if there is nothing in it for them, think about it? The people that I deal with they bag it, splash it with co2 and store it, till I'm ready to pick it up. To me that is worth something.

I've had TTB kick back labels saying they wanted formula approval for my grappas, or ones i was making for clients... I happen to have a signed document from the TTB stating exactly that i do NOT need a formula approval, so now i just include a scan of this file along with my COLA. Many times the people reviewing the label submissions know very little about the regulations they are supposed to be controlling. quite frustrating

Alcohol will be added as well as water in the stripping still. Probably not a bad idea to put a layer of alcohol on the pomace ASAP.

Be careful with the underlined bit... there are different rules for marc brandy when you add alcohol back in... you may need formula approval if that is your process.

EDIT: i forgot you are in Canada.. you may have different regulations than the US.

in the US.. you are not required to have formula approval for your grappa/marc brandy label as long as you are going from the pommace as it is off of the press.. if you add wine/fermented juice back into the skins, then you are technically required to submit a formula approval detailing how much you are adding back, what proof, blah blah blah.. extra pain in the butt

main thing is.. if you dont get the pommace on the day its pressed, see if you can convince them to put some CO2 over it and wrap it in plastic.. that will preserved the skins for a little bit longer. every day that goes by, you will lose alcohol from the skins decreasing your potential yields.

There are numerous small and medium sized wineries within a 1/2 hour drive from our planned location and the core of our business model requires access to their waste products. Obviously there's a huge hole in the plan until deals are made with the wineries to guarantee the cost & availability of their pomace.

I have industry contacts so getting introductions to winery owners isn't a problem. Problem is, I have no clue what the pomace is worth. Currently, most or all of it goes to compost. There's value there but running it through a still doesn't take that away... it's still going to the compost heap.

Should I be working out deals that pay the wineries a percentage (based on how much usable alcohol is extracted from their pomace) once the product is sold? I can't justify paying cash upfront for a waste product that will take a lot of time and money to process & sell.

Any experiences or ideas?

The arrangement i have with the wineries i work with here in Napa is they give me a call on the day of their pressing, and i arrive with my own macro bins, or have arranged to have them onsite before then, and they just empty the press into my bins, i come pick them up and once im done distilling, i can either take them back to the wineries, or i take the used pommace to the local green recycle place nearby... costs like $40 to get rid of 3 tons.

The short easy answer is.. no you shouldnt have to pay.. but if for some reason you do have to.. make sure they agree to take the spent pommace back from you at least, so you dont have to pay for disposal.

Hello All,

When producing Gin, using the maceration/distillation process, what is the impact of solvent proof on the quality of the final distillate? I would assume the degree of extraction, of individual compounds, will be affected by the proof, owing to the relative solubilities of given compounds to water or ethanol (e.g. salts have a higher solubility in water compared to ethanol, and therefore would be extracted to a greater extent in a low proof solvent compared to a high proof). Obviously salts would be inconsequential as they wouldn't come over in the distillation, but the same concept must hold true for other compounds that are volatile enough to come over. Maybe an add-on to my question should be; Are there any flavor and aroma compounds that can be effected by the proof of the maceration liquor?

Cheers, Ian

I cant answer for anyone else.. but we do all of our macerations at high proof. Even an overnight soak gives us a great extraction and is quite time efficient.

This guy can help with your oak aging needs...

Can finance oak barrels

dealt with him 2 times now- easy

Rick Wehner

BreweryFinance-a OneWorld Business Finance Co-op Member

303-800-1063 (Direct)

303-459-6968 (Fax)

www.breweryfinance.com

rickw@breweryfinance.com

Best

R

Hey Rick.. thanks for the link... can you describe a little bit more how he helped? Im assuming it was a similar model to how he finances the kegs for breweries? sort of initial cash infusion to pay for barrels and or supplies? something of that nature?

Any more details are greatly appreciated.

D.C.

We have been making rum for about 5 years now... and have never treated our molasses... thats not to say if we could afford a centrifugal filter that we wouldnt try to clean it up... the less undissolved solids in it, the more efficient the fermentation and consequently the distillation would be

HAH! funny you mention this.. i was just thinking about posting a similar question..

I just went through one whole washer vessel full of Gin heads... and just refilled it with some 182 proof rum heads.

My only concern is that the high proof alcohol is prematurely fadind the black plastic/paint that surrounds the windshield and the top of my trunk. Sure does smell nice though rolling down the road... plus if you pass a cow farm it smells WAY better. lol

If we may ask... what proof are you distilling at.. and how far down are you making your tails cuts.

We've had labels approved in as little as a week... that being said i too can echo the sentiments that TTB seems to be backed up.. IT took 60 days or so for our last label approval (finally got it last week)

If they reject it, they will say why ( and often you are at the mercy of the person who is the reviewer, and their understanding of the laws) You have the option of making the corrections and re-submitting ( there is a checkbox for this)... but if they reject something on your label that you know to be within compliance of the regs.. dont be afraid to call them and bitch... i have personally been involved in a few such cases. It takes time to get them to see the errors of their ways, and in one case, it took lawyers, but "we" prevailed.

good luck.

What we have found from our attendees to our week long workshops is that the county and city folks are more of a problem. Mostly in what to do with a distillery. Still new to a lot of areas.

Any input from the federal side?

Just curious as to how long its taking people nowadays to get their DSP licenses

Hi All,

Just a very general question , please answer if you feel up to it, I am just looking for some data points.

We opened our distillery about 13 years ago, and regulations were very different than they are now. I was just curious, how long did it take you to get your distillery up and running. From the time you first put pen to paper, till you received your final basic federal permit.

Any information is greatly appreciated. The information is just for personal curiosity and will not be used in any type of publication, just fyi.

Just my 2-cents... I'm just thinking, "Why should a consumer care enough to support tax breaks to craft distilleries, particularly in this time when they're looking at federal, state and local government spending cuts across the board in their own backyard?"

I don't want to sound like a wet blanket. The first step has successfully been taken. Excellent! Now we need to shift the focus towards rallying public support, right?

This is a good point, and i have already had to defend "our" position to a few people... so perhaps some more discussion on these boards, maybe posting up examples of discussions you have had with people you're trying to convince, so that we can share and concepts/tactics that seem to work well, and avoid those that dont. True grassroots

Ive cross posted this to several of my community message boards, and have friends that write for 2 local papers where i am trying to get a couple of articles written ( i think that is a great tactic for everyone else as well)

Also, i've contacted both of my representatives informing them of the issue, and asking them how best we can help the community ask for support.

Finally this was my letter to congress in support of the bill. Its kind of scattered, but there was a character count on the submission form, so i was limited in the detail... its also a litte flowery, but i figure politicians might appreciate that type of lexicon.

I support H.R. 777: To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to reduce the rate of tax on distilled spirits produced by small producers because I am a small producer of craft spirits. As the son of the Master Distiller in our family business, I have had the great fortune not only to work along side my father, but also to learn at the hands of a master craftsman. It has not only provided a livelihood and a skill-set for me and my family, but also given us the hope of one day passing along our skills to future generations, creating a distilling dynasty. Our small distillery has been open since 1998, almost 13 years now... and it has been a struggle every step of the way. We as small producers face so many obstacles and barriers to entry, its a wonder that people try to start craft distilleries at all. Not only would a reduction in excise tax for small producers greatly alleviate the financial strain we currently face, but it would also help to allow (what is my humble opinion) one of the greatest American attributes to shine through us.... ingenuity.

Ingenuity is what makes Americans great. It is what helped shape this great nation, and continues to set it apart from others. We believe we can do anything, and if if that anything exists already, we believe we can do it better. This spirit rings true with the production of spirits that are unrivaled in the world; in the idea that unbound by historical regulations, we can make something wonderful. Ill repeat so that it is not lost.. we can MAKE something wonderful, in these times when America barely produces anything anymore.

We saw a huge boom in the micro/craft brewing industry due to this very spirit; yet, the craft distilling industry has seen only a fraction of the growth of its alcohol producing cousins ( beer and wine). Much of this is due to factors that are for the time being outside of our control ( self distribution, tasting, direct sales, etc)

This tax reduction, though, is the first big step, the first real opportunity for our government to show that they support that same creativity, and ingenuity, and hard working spirit of our industry.

Please vote in support of H.R.777, and help support an industry that can contribute to America being the envy of all other nations, Let us do our part.