pogriallais

Thank you for the response @Williamsburg Distillery. I appreciate the feedback. I prefer to be armed with information before approaching these guys as they can take a very conservative route if they don't know all the facts.

Hi guys, Alcohol vapour is heavier than air so I believe it would sink in a distillery situation if a failure of equipment were to occur. Does everyone install ventilation specifically for operating their stills? What's the best solution. Would an alcohol vapour detection device suffice? I have a simple 180 litre copper pot still that needs a pressure release valve and vacuum release. Any tips on sizing a valve for this size of a still and where to get them? Cheers, Pádraic

James, Thank you for the information. Great work done on the parrot.

Hi guys, Where would you recommend sourcing the following parts: pressure and vacuum release valve electrical heating element (single and three phase electricity available) a flange to join the still's pot and head parrot to collect condensed distillate condenser The still is a traditional copper pot still of approximately 150 litres with a rather tall head. The condenser is a 1.5 inch copper coil. Traditionally it was heated directly with gas. My assumption from an ATEX point of view is that electrically heating the mash/ low wines is safer than directly heating with gas. For those of you concerned with safety I'm getting an explosion protection document produced by a competent professional. By the way I'm based in Ireland so European suppliers might be easier to deal with regarding regs shipping etc. Any input/ insight is greatly appreciated. Cheers, Pádraic

Hi guys, The local environmental health office has taken issue with my plans to use stream water that's running through my property. Their argument is that the consistency of the quality of the water would vary a lot from a microbiological point of view. I thought the process of distillation would eliminate any threats from a microbiological point of view due to the temperatures within the process. The chemical composition of the water was also another concern of theirs albeit a small one. Does distilling reduce the concentration of metals in water for example iron/manganese? Alcohol has antibacterial properties; would this also eliminate any microbiological risks in the finished product? They have suggested that I need potable water for the process but I'm not going to spend significant money treating water if it isn't necessary. I also have a drilled well on site that isn't being used- I think levels of Iron/ manganese were high when it was first drilled. The stream is better water in terms of its chemical composition but for potable water standards it has exceeds limits for coliforms and ecoli. Could anyone suggest a reasource I could read on this topic?

Thanks for all the replies. If I were to build a pot still would it need a pressure release valve or would you recommend one?

Hi guys, Anyone know where I could get information on regualtions that distilling equipment must comply with. I may build some of my own equipment or modify second hand equipment. I'm base in Ireland so presumably the regulations would be specified by the EU. Best regards, Padraic

Just on the same question of cooling water. Can it be used indefinitely without any replenishement? Or should it be replenished with 'fresh' water at any particular rate?

Thank you for all the feedback and ideas- I really appreciate it. It seems like the best option at the moment is the resevoir(s) and chilling if necessary. Pádraic

Hi Guys, I searched the forum for this information but didn't come accross anything relevent. I'm currently trying to secure a building permit on an agricultural building and permission to abstract water from a stream that runs through the property. I'm in a rural location and the local authority is favourable but quite conservative about a distillery in the area- they're not used to this kind of thing. Regarding process water I anticipate I'm going to be using 1250 gallons per week by the end of year 2. One manufacturer of equipment stated that I can expect to use 14529 gallons per week for cooling water producing at the level quoted above. What can I do to minimise cooling water abstraction and discharge from the stream. One method I have come accross is to re-use cooling water for mashing. Any other ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Thank you for the help, much appreciated. I have edited post above to reflect COGS left out. What range of cost would the tamper evident seal fall into? When you mention storage- is this a fraction of the cost of the floor space? Labour hasn't been included or other fixed overheads such as electricity, gas, insurance, commercial rates, business loan or licence costs as their cost per bottle will fluctuate depending on sales volume. I won't be taking a salary unitl the volume of sales can sustain such.

I'm working on sales forecasts and financial projections for my proposed distillery. I'm just wondering what your experience has been with markup or margin on your products. Of course a lot will depend on OPEX, and income of the individual distillery. The large distilleries probably have a different margin to the the micros. How does this example below compare? For example whiskey product (per bottle): bottle, grain, yeast, water, cork, lables, box: $4.00 Barrel:$0.72 Delivery to distributor:$0.80 Excise:$2.14 COGS:$7.66 Wholesale price:$10 Margin:$2.54 Distributor:30% Retailer:30% Sales tax:$0.75 Bottle on shelf: $23.99 Thank you for any help you can offer.

Correct on the lead times- the biggest Scottish manufacturer has lead times towards the latter end of that scale. The other manufacturers' lead times are increasing all the time- no wonder with the amount of micros starting. On the mash bill side of the equation I would be using malted and unmalted barley to replicate that particular style.

There's a variety of excellent stills on the market at the moment. The difficult part is choosing which one to go with. For those of you who are making whiskey products, what has your experience been with your still(s)? Some of the elements that I'm weighing up are: congener profile of spirits from respective still types still efficiency Capital expenditure Simple pot stills for example will produce more robust flavours than a hybrid still- pros and cons with each. Greater control over flavour and aromatics in a hybrid still. Hybrid stills in theory are more efficient in terms of yield than simple pot stills. Hybrid stills are, from my experience, cheaper to buy. Simple pot stills are more traditional from a visitor perspective?? (maybe this shouldn't even be considered) Are there any other considerations that I should take into account before choosing my still type? The still I will choose will be copper construction from boiler to condenser and will be heated directly/indirectly with steam. I'm planning to produce an Irish style whiskey.

Thank you everyone for all the responses. Very insightful!

I do plan on making unaged spirits from day one to get cash-flow going in addition to distillery tours. I completely agree on the valuation of the company, of course it is higher risk to an investor and I stand to keep much less equity from a business plan than an operational business. With regard to space I'm considering building on my family's land but I'm not ruling out purchasing a building or a long term lease.

I really appreciate all the responses from everyone- I'm listening to all opinions and following my gut and the metrics to make my decision on scale. The plan at the moment is to sell 10,000 cases in year one and to build that up to 50,000 cases. I would have no problem starting smaller and getting further investment when there is demand for the product. My concern however is the time involved in that strategy. To produce Whiskey in Ireland legally it must be aged for 3 years. Scalling up with whiskey is a slow process and to me it's too late scaling up when demand has already surpassed supply. Of course with Vodka/white whiskey/gin production there is no aging required so it's easier to scale up as demand increases.

Thank you for your response Jarhead. At the moment I'm putting together my business plan so just trying to work out every cost. Many of the Scottish and Irish distillers dismantle the ex-bourbon barrels before shipping and re-assemble them at their final destination, would it be prohibitively expensive to ship whole barrels to Ireland?

Hi guys any ideas who could supply me with ex-bourbon 53 gallon barrels? What would the difference in cost be between new barrels and used barrels. If you have experience in this area, an average cost would be good- I realise it depends on several factors. Thanks in advance.

Thank you. I completely agree with you re the forward thinking of people within the craft distilling world particularly in the US. Not to use a broad sweeping statement but I think people who are used to big industry may find it harder to think outside the box. I have spoken to a number of US consultants already- looks like they will be taking a trip across the pond! Cheers

They didn't specify still size but they did suggest output. Fortunately it is possible to get a licence with a smaller still but you must be deemed to have exceptional circumstances and there's also a few more regulatory hoops to jump through(Republic of Ireland). Some of the experts that I have spoken to have quoted that I should aim for 50,000+ cases per year, others said I should aim for 100,000 litres per year. Of course the business is not just about volume it's also about the margin after sales. Regardless of the advice I don't want to end up in a situation where the distillery is too small for me to make a living from it. I'm crunching the numbers at the moment to see what will actually work but also getting expert financial input.

Bioviper. I completely agree with you that not everyone will be successful. That's why I think it's important to do all the hard work of researching everything that comes to the business and meeting people. It was my initial thought to start relatively small and if all goes well to expand. At the moment I'm in discussions with industry experts who would be willing to help in an advisory/board member role as I don't have experience within the industry. I do have lots of experience technically- my family have been distilling for generations.

Thank you all again for your thoughts and the information. I am based in Ireland. Scott, I appreciate completely what you're saying, hopefully I didn't cause any offence. Great info from Paul, Scott. Thanks tI5612 for the info on UK distilleries. The London Distillery Company have some good info quoted in their outline business plan on Crowdcube.com.

Thanks everyone for responsding. Some great info in your posts. I'm doing my research at the moment to construct a business plan. I was hoping to start with a 500 gallon pot still with coulmn rectification distillery. So to put the figures into context, everyone I have spoken to in Ireland and Scotland(industry experts) who have started/ are starting a micro whiskey distillery said that it's not possible to do it with less than €5,000,000. The €5,000,000 is to cover equipment, and working capital for the first 5 years. They feel anything less is not viable. I see plenty of US distileries started with a fraction of that figure. The capex and working capital business models are based on whiskey only and would release whiskey at 4 years. I would much rather retain most equity in the business and I have no intention of flipping the business. Is there a real demand/appetite in the US market for white whiskey or is it a small niche?

Hi Guys, Hopefully someone with experience getting finance for their distillery or an investment specialist could offer some insight and or experience. If the details are too vague just let me know. Using the figures below as an example: Total Capital expenditure and working capital to start up and to operate distillery for first 5 years- $5,000,000 Personal funds-$400,000- $500,000 What sort of equity should I be retaining? First whiskey to be released at 3 years. We hope to produce Vodka/Gin/ White whiskey initially for cash flow as well as having distillery tours. Thank you in advance.