porter

The concept is what we've been discussing with local wineries. Except we would pick up the 'bad' wine in drums and transfer to our site. I know, tax transfer and all involved. But the mobile distilling idea really doesn't make sense to me. Temperature control of the stack, weather problems, county zoning permits, just think of all the local things you went through as a distillery versus what a winery goes through in you area. In my case it isn't any real difference. But I know in some areas the hoops are much smaller to squeeze through for a distillery. And not to mention the non-productive time of setup and taredown, trusting the local water conditions, etc. No, even if the TTB blessed this I can't see it being viable for anything more than a publicity thing for festivals at the wineries. Sort of like cooking down apple butter in the orchard just to show how it's done.

It really depends on how deep you want the computer to control things. There's an online system, with monthly fee, which as I understand it will record every bit of your business from paying the light bill to billing distributors. Somewhat overkill for small guys. Be carefull on any type of software. You can spend more time in setting it up and maintaining it than it saves in many cases. Old computer wisdom comes into play here. The computer is a dumb box; garbage in, garbage out. Don't look for or create a computer tracking system until you have one on paper. You won't know what you need. Look for a good Excel student at your local business school and keep him focused in on exactly what you want. Flowchart the thing out on the kitchen table for a couple of weeks. Record every move you make in the area you want to track. Then you'll know what you want to do and can create exactly what will help you out.

But they don't say that. I know, it's just the usual half-truth advertising fluff, but folks just need to point out the deceptive practices of those in the industry. Ranks right up there with politics.

And apparently nobody else in the US makes whiskey, according to the press release. "....as Heaven Hill Distilleries is the only American Whiskey producer that distills Bourbon, Rye, Corn and Wheat Whiskeys." Just to keep you informed on the fact everyone else produces alcohol in water I guess.

Here's a link to a release, shows the bottle and a little more info. http://www.mfrtech.com/articles/11335.html

Regarding your personal background, if you've been actively distilling under a legal distillery guidance, I don't see why you can't quote something about that. "xx years of experience" No different than a truck driver. Just because he doesn't own the truck doesn't mean he can't say how many years he's been professionally driving. For the business, I've seen things through the years for businesses such as "...concieved 10 years ago, born in 2011..." It's all just advertising fluff anyway. But if that's what it takes to push forward, more power to you Proof is in the product.

The larger question is.....would you have enough product below the 190 to really make up for anything on the same run? On that 3rd run, if you are cutting high on the 2nd, would you really have enough to make any reasonable quantity of the dog? I would continue to collect below the 190 for combining with other below 190 runs, then make the white dog from that. Maybe take 3 batches of leftover vodka runs to throw together for a single run of the white dog. Or else go to a plate still and run the vodka for a higher vodka yield and forget about the dog. Getting to be some good hand-made columns out there for small production you could fit to the pot still cooker. Interchangeable heads are the key to small producers now. No reason to have 2 diffeent cookers, just switch heads for the run.

Do a little google search and you'll find DISCUS is nothing more than a bullying association, no legal grounds of any kind. Go to their website and you'll find what they waste their time on. It's not promoting artisan distillers, or anyone else small for that matter. They apparently are just trying to keep the playing field level for the large groups who can afford to pay the big bucks to join. And you don't have to join in order to product. They simply act as an over-ego advertising enforcement group without any legal enforcement abilities. Here's a couple really laughable complaints they have posted, trying to show they are doing something constructive. http://www.discus.org/pdf/Skyy_Vodka_Legs_Ad_REV.pdf http://www.discus.org/pdf/Sweet_Carolina_Sweet_Tea_Vodka-10th_Semi_Annual_Report.pdf Age checkpoints are indeed silly. And they can't do anything legally about it if you don't have one. If you aren't carefull and laugh at DISCUS now you just may find yourself not being able to advertise if a child can see your beverage label sign from the road.

Interested also, but clear. What we are looking for sounds similar. A distillery in StLouis uses them, but didn't know where they got them, said they are 'scotch tasters'. Have a nice flute flare on top, nearly a bowl bottom. Short stem. Looked on the suggested site, nothing of that quality there.

I'll have to chime in also with results not meeting expectations. I've personally bought various whiskys when in different areas of the country just to see what was out there. And there a lot of highly written about 'artisan' whiskeys which, in my personal opinion, shouldn't even be on the market. In one professional tasting class a person brought samples of their actual sale products. The class instructor asked them point blank if they ever had anyone buy a bottle the second time, it was that bad. For those problem 'artisans' maybe we'll see a weeding out soon. The article hits on a very sore point though that needs to be addressed. The 'blenders' and 'mixers' shouldn't be considered as distillers. If your product doesn't go through a still under your guidance/control you aren't a distiller. If you don't own a still, your not a distiller. If you're just mixing products then you are a bartender, nothing more, and happen to be selling your product in a bottle instead of by the glass. I'm sure some on here will spit and fume over this, but that's a fact. Now we need to get the law to say the same thing. They need seperate licensing and label restrictions to keep them from calling themselves distillerys .

Fair enough.......All we can hope for is that something good comes from stirring up congress to get some changes made. Those laws have been around way to long. Good luck with it. R..........

That's correct. Ethanol is the only non-poisonous product which is forced to be made poisonus prior to leaving the facility. If you have a fuel ethanol permit you better also have invoices for purchasing the additive. They are that smart. Doesn't mean it all gets treated, just that you bought the additive. But they might catch on when they see you making product from good 2 row or pure cane molasses. And the aging barrels are a real giveaway........

It would be of great interest just how many current small distilleries which are owned by the mega folks will be helped, killing any effectivness of the bill. Glaring example appears to be Stranahan's Colorado Whiskey. While it would have fallen in as an artisan, it not any more since it is now owned by Proximo, a mega owner. So will that give the mega owner a break on taxes, lumping them into same boat as a true artisan? How many other 'small' operations are there who've been bought out but still produce small quantities? Anyone ever research that? Nope, too many openings in that bill. In fact, it only has 3 or 4 lines that have anything to do with limits, rest of it eco impact statement. It really looks like a good sales job, backed by the mega producers to appease somebody. Nothing in it to help the true small producers. Limits have to be lower and definitations of who can own the biz needs to be tighter.

Excellent observation.... And that's why I would really back something from the fed level exempting the first 200 gallons of product from taxation. Or allow them to apply for a permit allowing up to the 200 p/gal limit for maybe $200 a year and that would cover taxation, etc. without the home distiller needing anything from the state level. Of course, you couldn't sell anything, just for fun.

Some immediate questions arise over this........... What's the gallon limits on 'small producer'? How many different small producer distilleries can a large company own at the higher corporate level and still get by paying the reduced tax? You know the big boys will simply spin off smaller corps with different labels. You'll need to have limits on who can own what. What other limits/regulations are covered in this bill? Have you read the bill, folks? Here's a link to the actual bill. http://www.distilling.com/PDF/PROPsmall.pdf And the single part pertaining to who and what the limits are. "Reduced excise tax rates should apply to the first 60,000 proof gallons of spirits sold if producers sell no more than 100,000 proof gallons per year. Reduced rate apply to:▪ Brands directly owned by producers▪ Brands manufactured for third parties" I don't believe for a minute an 'artisan' out there produces 100,000 proof gallons a year. That's 3,500 proof cases a month ! So how long will it take for the mega-distillers to spin off labels to fit those specs? Sounds like a nice fuzzy idea on the surface, but since we don't pay the tax, we really just pass the tax through from user to Feds, how does it really benefit us? I can only see it as a benefit to the big folks unless it has specific restrictions on ownerships, etc. What comes to mind as a better measure would be to 'exempt' the first, say 300 cases per month or some other reasonable figure which would cover an artisan, from being taxed at all. That would directly effect small distillers. But a large producer wouldn't find it worth spinning off another label.

Welcome to Missouri........... The law here is vague on the surface, and I get a lot friends arguing round the fire about it. It reads....... 311.055. No person at least twenty-one years of age shall be required to obtain a license to manufacture intoxicating liquor, as defined in section 311.020, for personal or family use. The aggregate amount of intoxicating liquor manufactured per household shall not exceed two hundred gallons per calendar year if there are two or more persons over the age of twenty-one years in such household, or one hundred gallons per calendar year if there is only one person over the age of twenty-one years in such household. --------- So by Missouri law it's legal. Including distilling, since they use the phrase "spirituous...or other liquors" in the following section of the law. 311.020. The term "intoxicating liquor" as used in this chapter shall mean and include alcohol for beverage purposes, alcoholic, spirituous, vinous, fermented, malt, or other liquors, or combination of liquors, a part of which is spirituous, vinous, or fermented, and all preparations or mixtures for beverage purposes, containing in excess of one-half of one percent by volume. All beverages having an alcoholic content of less than one-half of one percent by volume shall be exempt from the provisions of this chapter, but subject to inspection as provided by sections 196.365 to 196.445*. But we all know the Feds over-rule in all cases where a federal ruling is made. So it goes with this case. While Missouri says something is fine, feds choke you by the throat to do it their way. If Feds ever give approval to home distillation Missouri is ahead of the curve with having a law in place with resonable limits, nothing will need changing. Except the fact I can't think of anyone who can drink 200gallons of 80proof a year

You may run into problems with plates too close. A good 'bubble dance' can span that gap easily. You only want vapor to go to next plate, not liquid. Also, in practice a single cap will spill vapor to one side if not perfectly level or edge isn't perfect. Try getting bubbles to come out all around a plate under water, won't happen. That's biggest reason for numerous small bubble caps.

Missouri is all three. You can retail, wholesale to retailer, and self-distribution. Internet sales also.

Absolutely correct. The deeper question to ask is difference between manufacture and retail sales. The ordinances usually read 'cannot sell' , not 'cannot manufacture' since most of the folks writing those things up haven't a clue of what they are doing. And it's most likely going to be on the town level. In our town we can manuf, but not sell retail within 500ft. Tricky part is whether that's property line to property line, or center to center of property, etc...... And what's on the books when you get your permit may change prior to you starting up. Depending on the church, they may back you on this though. All bets are off if it's a school also on the church grounds.

A MUST READ article for sure. Absolutely Beautiful...From the sound of it this might be the best thing to happen to the industry yet. The little guys have had to compete with the big boys hundreds of times their size, under the exact same rules for a hundred years. Now the ground rules are changing. These folks aren't going to be in the small market. At their rate of 60 cases an hour, their target is on the large production houses. I don't see it as a problem for the artisans though. But if I had some real money invested in Beam, Daniels, Jose, etc. I would be nervous. Can you imagine the franchise oppurtunity for this? In an open state like Missouri we could have a product on the shelf, out the front door, on the internet, and in distribution in weeks not years. And without the EPA crap the 'green' people are pushing all over. Interesting question, how many folks in the artisan market are making 'well' spirits? That's a $15/bottle market and I don't think anyone here is at that low price point. Quality? I can't say, haven't seen here in Missouri yet, but will be searching out when I get back east. And it would be improper for anyone else to make a quality judgement unless they've tried them, not in comparison to artisan stuff, but compared to the market they are competeing in.

Agree with the Primera idea. There's also several other commercial grade dye-sub printers out there. Can print to waterproof type paper label stock. My son made labels for our equipment on regular vinyl stock. Multi-color, waterproof, cut on a regular vinyl cutter. Much cheaper than sending out for 100 labels. Check with your local vinyl sign printer shop, work out something with them I'm sure.

Just some info on using propane versus natural gas. Propane is much more effecient, but usually at a higher cost. ■100,000 BTU/hr furnace will use about 97 cubic feet of natural gas (100,000 ÷ 1,030 = 97.1) in one hour ■100,000 BTU/hr furnace will use about 40 cubic feet of propane (100,000 ÷ 2516 = 39.7) in one hour Electric is not quite as easy to figure, but it would be a good idea for you to get the cost/KWh from them, along with the your various gas cost. Some areas of the country will cost you much more for propane versus electric. Also, if you're in an area which looses power frequently I wouldn't go with electric. Use propane and put a generator backup on the distillery, you won't have to go down in the middle of a run.

From what I've read it will always fall back to the federal laws taking precidence over state. If state says an individual can't, but fed says you can (and fed laws say you can own a still by the way) then federal over-rides the state. Works the other way also. Missouri includes 'spirits' in their 200 gallon yearly family limit of wine, beer, and spiriteous products. But we all know what the federal law says about that. There are some other federal limits on private ownership of a still regarding size and usage, but that's a different issue. You could always apply for a federal fuel ethanol permit, bypassing any Georgia laws while you're building the business.

Also, what quantity of wash are you handling?

Looks like a nice system. Since I couldn't see pricing on your site yet I am going to presume this is a single, large package. It sort of looks like using Quickbooks to keep your checkbook, though, for smaller folks. It would probably market better and sell to a broader client base if it was broken down into individual modules. I can tell you we have no use for the accounting, have an account for that. And there are other areas we really wouldn't ever use. But there are some real nice things in the demo, but is it worth buying a complete package? Don't know. Get the smaller folks hooked and they will keep adding on to the program as they grow.