RyeWater

Thats what im talking about!

Myself and a buddy of mine who is a potential partner for this dream will be making the trek from Maryland for the conference. We are new to the industry and thirsty for information!

We are looking for a decent 250-300 gallon stripping still that is at least copper from the jacket up. Who produces a quality and reasonably priced stripping still!?

That is stunning.

"A.J. Gallagher Group

They are the worlds largest insurer of ethanol plants and wind turbine energy in the world. You can get your fed bond and ins all under one roof. And they are super cheap.

Please call : Dain J. at Work=515-440-8421 Cell=515-782-7626

I get nothing for the refural. But please tell him Joe Dehner sent you.

Is there any attempt or intention to enforce this silly rule? Are there inspectors visiting a tasting room 10 months apart attempting to catch you selling a contraband 3rd bottle? What are the consequences of non-compliance? Seems like an impossible record keeping task for a tasting room.

Yeah that law really seems to be a bit underthought. Are they really that worried that someone is going to come in every day and buy 2 bottles of craft liquor.

All I am saying is that if you have never fermented anything, the best way to learn is by doing it. Fermenting for distillation is cake. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss homebrewers either. I know a lot of them whose expertise puts many of my pro brewing colleagues to shame.

I have home brewed before but It had been a few years, on your advice i just went to my local beer brewing store and am back in the trade.

Like every other part of this industry, there is a LOT going on with a fermentation. I think that a consultant is a good step for those who want peace of mind and good yields. Having dealt with fermentations of all types over the past few decades, I'm always amazed at how many different techniques there are...and I'm amazed just as often at the bone-headed procedures some people insist on using. Even though I don't think I need a fermentation engineer for myself (which probably means I'd better go find one...pride cometh before a fall!), I'd love to sit down and talk shop with one.

And while I'm not sure I'd enlist the help of too many homebrewers, I think that professional brewers are a great resource. Beer is a far more delicate, difficult beverage to ferment than what we require in a distillery. The finesse of a brewer can really help you...especially a brewer that does a lot of high-gravity beer. I've also learned a great deal from cider makers and mead makers. Not to mention wine and sake producers. The vinegar guys know some cool tricks, too!

Sounds like we are on about the same page (mentally at least, fermentationally speaking were are unfortunately not!

I have the best place in the world to get everything you need.

....so what its it!

Not that simple. It's not just the Fed requirements that you have to deal with but the State and Local municipality....which more often, is the stickier stuff. We started backwards...going for local, then State, then Fed licenses. All will require you to submit some sort of drawing and/or description of the site. My guess is that going the way you are proposing will actually create more paperwork in the filings of amendments, changes, and other red tape documentation. You would be better off finding the place that you want to open your doors from and striking a deal with the seller or landlord that was structured on a sliding scale....less $$ for the first 6 months and then gradually more once you got open. Worked for us.

Seconded... Negotiate with your landlord, ours gave us reduced rent until we were licensed and producing. Of course, this depends on how commercial real estate is in your area.

You could try to make this work until your DSP comes through:

§19.32 Experimental distilled spirits plants.

(a) General. The appropriate TTB officer may authorize the establishment and operation of experimental plants for specific and limited periods of time solely for experimentation in, or development of:

(1) Sources of materials from which spirits may be produced;

(2) Processes by which spirits may be produced or refined; or

(3) Industrial uses of spirits.

( Waiver. The appropriate TTB officer may waive any provision of 26 U.S.C. chapter 51 (other than 26 U.S.C. 5312) and of this part (other than §19.33) to the extent necessary to effectuate the purposes of 26 U.S.C. 5312( as outlined in paragraph (a) of this section. However, TTB will not waive the payment of any tax on spirits removed from an experimental plant.

(26 U.S.C. 5312)

§19.33 Application to establish experimental plants.

(a) Application requirements. Any person who wishes to establish an experimental plant for the purposes specified in §19.32 must submit a written application to the appropriate TTB officer and obtain approval of the proposed experimental plant. The application must:

(1) State the nature, extent, and purpose of the operations to be conducted;

(2) Describe the operations and equipment;

(3) Describe the location of the plant (including the proximity to other premises or operations subject to the provisions of 26 U.S.C. chapter 51); and

(4) Describe the security measures to be provided.

( Bond. The applicant must file a bond with the application in such form and penal sum as required by the appropriate TTB officer.

© Approval of application. Before approving the application, the appropriate TTB officer may require that the applicant submit additional information if necessary. TTB will not approve the application and permit operations until the plant conforms to the specifications stated in the application and the applicant complies with provisions of 26 U.S.C. chapter 51 and with any provisions in this part that are not specifically waived.

(26 U.S.C. 5312)

Smiley faces are not my doing.

I was actually just looking at the today, I feel like they would not appreciate it very much if I did this as it seems to me this is intended for a company who wants to study some aspect of distilling for research non related to establishing that exact business. Dont want to anger anyone at the TTB before I start! Has anyone else done this with success?

I also went "backwards". Found the facility, (2 possible locations in same community) , put in purchase offers on both, contingent on receiving approval from all local, state and federal offices for distillation. Then hit the bricks starting with zoning, village and county board meetings, etc.. until I was satisfied that there were no objections. Finally received approval from zoning (aprox 4 months ) then filed for both state and fed DSP 's. After beginning that process and getting initial feedback from both fed and state wherein I knew I would more than likely get licensed, attempted to close on both properties. Lost one to a previous purchase offer, so dropped it from my application as a second location for storage,etc.., and closed on the other.

All of that said, this entire process is very "site specific" right down to your neighbors potential complaints. So I would suggest that you get your location, whether by lease , option or contingent purchase offer, and plan on biting the bullet on some site expense while you await your licenses. But before you spend much money on a specific location, you should find out if it is possible to site your operation there.

The licensing is really two major parts

1) who

2) where

You should pretty much know if you will pass number 1 or not, as all of the things that will cause you to be rejected are listed.

However the hard part is finding an address and facility that can accommodate what you are trying to accomplish, while also complying with the myriad or codes and regulations that you will encounter.

It seems that you Hewnspirits, and Kristian are saying pretty much the same thing, try and find a good location that the owner will work with you on your situation and a location that fits the bill. I think the same way as you guys so i dont consider it going backwards to start with the county, then move to state then federal. That is the route we are going and have been meeting with economic development corps from the various counties around us. Luckily it seems most of the counties are rally backing this stuff (they want the tax money bad) and have established meetings to make sure that the permitting goes through quickly and without holdup.

We are also fortunate enough to be friends with a large commercial real estate owner in the area who already said he would do deferred and reduced rent for us so looks like we will pursue this route a little harder. His properties are not the optimal location and couldn't support a tasting room probably but they could work for the first year or two then we can move if all is well.

Completely agree boog, we have already taken most all of those things into consideration and will be doing all that on our own. Just was poking into it after a friend of ours with a distillery recommended it. If the price was reasonable it wouldn't be a bad idea, good thing to boast about in tours and the website too, saying you brought in a "fermentation engineer to perfect your recipes" doesn't sound terrible!

I was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to go about opening an distillery while avoiding paying much in rent during the long permitting period. I was thinking that we could purchase a very small location we don't intend to really ever use, buy a small still we will later use for R/D, get all the permits while we are at that location paying minimal rent and after we are fully licensed move to a final location and purchase a end-game still.

Does anyone know if this idea is feasible or if there is a better way.

Thanks

Anyone have any idea on this? Would it be anytime savings to buy a small still we could use for R/D and get it set up in a cheap location and get all our paper work through while we finish planning out everything else? Then once we get all the paper work done we can order our main still and a final location.

New York Distilling Company uses some dairy farm equipment as their chill tank to bottle i remember from my class there.

Great questions I am interested int he answers to a couple of them as well.

Not an answer to your question but where do you get your heat tunnel labels from?

Sorry for the double post please delete this thread admin.

How does it work with the TTB when you change locations or upgrade your still. Would we be able to purchase a small still and move it into a small location then apply for all our permits and do the waiting game in a cheap location then once we are accepted could we easily apply for a change of location and a still upgrade or would that take just as long as waiting it out in your final location

Thanks.

How does it work with the TTB when you change locations or upgrade your still. Would we be able to purchase a small still and move it into a small location then apply for all our permits and do the waiting game in a cheap location then once we are accepted could we easily apply for a change of location and a still upgrade or would that take just as long as waiting it out in your final location

Thanks.

RyeWater, There is such a thing as fermentation engineers and Ferm Solutions Inc has them. Ferm Solutions supports both the spirits industry and the fuel ethanol industry with products such as yeast and tons of services from a full analytical lab, start up training, plant design support, all aspects of fermentation and distillation, basically from grain to bottle. The expertise of Ferm Solutions is in all areas and types of fermentation and the optimization of fermentation. With over 200 yeast strains to choose from, Ferm Solutions yeast produces around 5 billion gallons of ethyl alcohol (fuel and spirits volume) around the globe and some of the best brands on the market use FSI's yeast and optimization or lab services.

www.ferm-solutions.com

859-402-8707 main number

see im not crazy everyone thanks Wilderness, im crashing now but ill look into you guys tomorrow and give you a call.

RyeWater, There is such a thing as fermentation engineers and Ferm Solutions Inc has them. Ferm Solutions supports both the spirits industry and the fuel ethanol industry with products such as yeast and tons of services from a full analytical lab, start up training, plant design support, all aspects of fermentation and distillation, basically from grain to bottle. The expertise of Ferm Solutions is in all areas and types of fermentation and the optimization of fermentation. With over 200 yeast strains to choose from, Ferm Solutions yeast produces around 5 billion gallons of ethyl alcohol (fuel and spirits volume) around the globe and some of the best brands on the market use FSI's yeast and optimization or lab services.

www.ferm-solutions.com

859-402-8707 main number

I don't intend this to be mean, but the OP is pretty hilarious. Fermentation engineer? LOL This isn't a jab, but I am amazed at how many going into this industry have such little knowledge about even the most basic production aspects of an alcoholic beverage. That being said, it is never too late to learn!

Look, get yourself some basic homebrewing gear and brew a couple of recipes. It is really pretty hard to screw it up, especially for distilling. Brewing beer is much more difficult than brewing distiller's beer too. Make sure you are pitching enough yeast, the proper amount of nutrient, and the right temperature for your yeast and you will have your wash in less than a week's time ready for the stripper. Is there more to know about fermentation? Sure. People get PhD's in fermentation chemistry, yeast microbiology, etc. Should you learn about it? Sure, if you are interested in it, it is really some fascinating stuff. But on the basic level, people have been fermenting whatever they can for millennia. There is not much to it.

Just because someone uses a different term than you doesn't mean that they lack "even the most basic production aspects of an alcoholic beverage" Between my research and my fathers research who is a chemist of 40 years we posses a very good understanding of fermentation as a matter of fact but we are not so arrogant as to think that books alone can supplement the kind of knowledge you gain from someone who specializes in this sort of thing. The term fermentation engineer was not a term I had heard either, a friend of mines friend owns a distillery in Denver and I got to opportunity to speak with him and he recommended hiring a "fermentation engineer" so I am pretty sure they are known in the industry....

It depends on how stable your water is, if you have bad water, too much boron, manganese, no calcium, high pH, THESE CAN FAIL YOUR FERMENTATIONS. So having a guy consult this is probably a good thing. If your on the west coast, doing so in the summer and winter is probably a good idea as the water table changes and your pH and minerals change. I have great water, aquifer. My friends in the closest town south, terrible water, full of minerals.

Thanks, getting the water tested is on our list of things to do to figure out what were working with, any idea where to find info on what optimal water is composed of, im sure i can find this on my own though. thanks.

Fruit growers lab in California for anyone is a good water lab and general farming lab to which you can send in samples and have them guide you. Water chemistry is a fabulous tool to correct your water for best performance with the least amount of chlorides, sodium, etc. From additives without really knowing what you start with. Yeast is also something a guy may want help with if he is big enough. Not everyone starts out on a shoe string. I was looking at a 2 Mil loan with a payback of 20k / month pay back note. I don't want any problems when having to survive that debt load. I'd hire people for sure for their consultation and layout of a plan for me to follow.

Thanks for the contacts will will look into these guys. This is what we are trying to budget now, we are going for a smaller operation but still a sizable investment for us and want to make sure we are as prepared as we can be. I would love to speak with you further if you had some free time or an email i could contact you at.

I have a couple of friends that work for Wyeast Labs and they have consulted before but usually on a very large scale. What's the experience of this 'engineer'?

I will contact them and see what they have to offer.

Assuming you're fermenting some type of grain, pick up the phone, and call your malt supplier. They all have former brewers on staff. Between the maltsters and brewers, you'll have everything you'll need to know for your fermentation in one phone call. Best of all, its free. All you have to do is reciprocate their good faith help, and buy their malt.

Often times these guys know things the pros dont! Pricing grains is next on my to do list so I can kill two birds with one stone.

You can look into Seibel Institute and contact them, see what they may have to offer. They are a beer brewing school. There is also the Harriot Watt University in Scotland, I know of a guy named Graeam Walker who did a presentation at Sieble and they go into some serious detail on equipment and theory. He could at the very least point you in the right direction. Lallemand is a massive company with plenty of people who would be willing to offer information. There is Roger Boulton at UC Davis.

Great that sounds good I am going to look into them now and contact them, thanks.

NY has some pretty awesome laws. DC has even better ones, but leaseholds are high. If I had the luxury of choosing, for myself, it would either be Wisconsin or NM...the first because of the existing culture, the second because of the opportunities!

I was trying to look in Washington DC laws but had a hard time locating all the information on them. I did see that being a Class A Manufacturer there would allow you to sell to retail locations like bars and liquor stores. Would that allow you to sell directly to bars and stores in other states or only in DC.

Hey there, couple questions, we on in the later stages of planning our distillery and have decided to seek out a fermentation engineer to come help us perfect our fermentation process over the course of a 2-4 week period once we are operational. We have researched and read about fermentation till we’re blue in the face but you cannot beat the kind of knowledge you acquire when working with someone with hands on experience.

Do you think that this would be beneficial?

What do you think this would cost roughly speaking?

Where would I locate good candidates?

About $0.30 per 750 ml bottle during our first year.

However that amount per bottle is definitely dropping because our production runs have scaled up, so the overhead of the overall building electricity is spread over more bottles. We also recently drilled an injection well to lower our cooling costs. We are also installing solar panels. The state and federal credits make it worthwhile.

Thanks thats a great help, ya my day job is in the solar field and the incentives are great, you made a great financial decision installing solar panels..

when you were estimating around $0.35 a 750 ml bottle what size still were you using? Steam Jacket? What size boiler?

Thanks for the reply's. Ya we do not have a utility bill yet or that would be my route. Right now I am purely working this up for a business planning measure so looks like I will be headed down this method.

Electric- take the kw rating of the equipment -X- time- X- cost per kwhr.

IE- 4500 watt= 4.5 kw X 3 (Hours run time) x .35 (whatever your electricity costs) = $4.73

But i agree I would like to try and incorporate all the energy used from mashing to cooling the ferms.

Does anyone have any rough estimates for their cost to produce per gallon or whatever base unit you use.