MichaelAtTCW

Thanks @captnKB. I've deposited 500 rubles into your account.

We've made air spargers for years. Typically they're for displacing air in the bottles and introducing inert gas to minimize dissolved oxygen in the final product. More for beer & wine than for spirits, but some users have used them to blast out dust too.

What we've learned over the years is that compressed air doesn't work very well. Besides the potential for introducing more crud itself, compressed air mostly just kicks dust around. That's particularly true of bottles that are not shaped like a "standard" wine bottle. Compressed air just isn't very effective at dislodging particles. Some stuff is forced out, but most stays inside. Rinsing works much better. The rinser we make and sell is the MiniMax.

On 6/22/2019 at 3:22 PM, whiskeytango said:

What would your recommendation be for a do it all pump?

 

Any of the above I mention are good choices. Each has their own drawbacks, but on the whole they will, indeed, do it all. I'd say consider your situation, desires, and budget and make a selection that meets your needs. I'll go over each option briefly.

RPD

The Waukesha & Ampco pumps we sell are rated for -40° to 300 °F and 1,000,000 cP of viscosity, or about the viscosity of Crisco. Without a doubt they're the most popular pump in the wine industry. Pretty much every mid-sized and up commercial winery uses these pumps for bottling, filtration, and even solids transfer. They'll start at around $7-8k for a fairly small pump, and go up from there. There are a few downsides to this style of pump:

1. If a hard solid gets into one you're toast. It'll get caught between the rotors and score them up at best, or seize the pump and damage the gearbox at worst. I've heard of people accidentally dropping in TC gaskets, staples, etc.
2. They are self-priming, but because the rotors are hard, they won't pull quite as strong suction as a flexible impeller pump or some of the other pumps I'll discuss below.
3. Lord help you if you have a problem in the gearbox (the rear section of the pump). Unless you're adept at rebuilding planetary transmissions you'll probably want to send it direct to the manufacturer for repair/rebuilding.

They are self-priming by virtue of the fact that the rotors baaaaaaarely make contact and form a seal inside the head. After time, the metal-on-metal contact wears away and the head has to be machined out and oversized rotors put in if you want to keep getting a seal and self-priming. If you've ever worked on cars and had to bore out a cylinder and use oversize piston rings/pistons, it's the same concept. You can remanufacture the head a couple of times before a new head is required.

Piston Pumps

We sell Ragazzini Piston Pumps. Ragazzini calls them the "fifty year pump" because, on average, they last 40-50 years with simple regular maintenance. They'll self-prime from 30 feet, pump boiling mash, and are used by large commercial distilleries all over Europe for pretty much anything and everything. Expect to spend north of $12k. Downsides are:

1. They're big and heavy. No rolling over hose.
2. They're expensive.
3. They're not as common in the US.

Like the RPD pumps mentioned above, they're fairly complicated, but not so complicated that repairs can't be done by the end user if necessary. And again, with regular maintenance it's unlikely you'll need to carry out in-depth repairs for a few decades.

If I sell someone a piston pump, I don't anticipate talking to them about that pump for many, many years.

Peristaltic Pumps

Ragazzini also makes the peristaltic pumps we sell. They're one of the more interesting pump types, in my opinion. They can pull a nearly perfect vacuum and pump huge, abrasive solids. They're extremely versatile. On the one hand peristaltic pumps are used for moving blood during open-heart surgery because they're so gentle. On the other hand they're used for pumping rock slurries in mining operations because they're so powerful. You can get a pretty small 20 GPM peristaltic for about the same price as a similarly-sized RPD pump: $8-9k. The only downside is that they have about the same temperature limitations as flexible impeller pumps, so no boiling liquids.

The upsides are pretty compelling: there's only one wear part—the peristaltic tube. That's it. Period, end of story. Change the tube and you have an essentially new pump. There are no check valves or other obstructions in the pump. I've heard of users accidentally dropping whole tri clamp fittings into the pump and having them come out the other side with neither the pump not the clamp damaged. They're very good at self-priming, and they can pump hundreds of meters without breaking a sweat.

I'd add AODD pumps to the mix. They seem to be the most popular pumps we sell for transferring liquids, particularly high-proof. Mash is another story unless you get a very large AODD.

Centrifugal pumps are much cheaper in terms of dollars per GPM. Take something like our Dynahead 114, a centrifugal pump with a 1.5 HP motor and a maximum potential flow rate of 130 GPM. A similarly-specced flexible impeller pump in terms of size, motor HP, and price has a maximum flow rate of about 20 GPM. To get to 100 GPM with a flexible impeller pump you'll be spending at least twice the cost of the Dynahead 114 and have a motor about 3 times as powerful.

That said, centrifugal pumps are not a total slam dunk. You have to work around them. They need to be primed, or to have liquid already running to their inlet in order to work properly. Manufacturers recommend against moving solids with centrifugal pumps, as the fast-spinning impellers will be damaged by abrasive solids (and at 3500 rpm, solids can be very abrasive). Additionally, if the inlet becomes clogged or the product you are trying to move is very viscous, you run the risk of cavitation. Cavitation is where there isn't enough material making it to the inlet of the pump fast enough. It causes vapor bubbles to form and it ultimately destroys the stainless steel impeller.

The best way to be sure you're getting the right centrifugal pump is to understand the pumping conditions. Questions like:

• Will it have a flooded inlet?
• If not, how will you prime it?
• What is the tallest run you will have to pump?
• What kind of backpressure will it face as the result of any process valves, filters, 90° elbows, etc.?
• Will it have any pressure at the inlet?

With those answers in mind, work with your centrifugal pump salesperson to spec the pump for a given duty point. That, or just overspec the hell out of it and buy more pump than you need to ensure your bases are covered and you are operating within the pump curve.

Cavitation and viscous materials like mash are not such a big deal for flexible impeller pumps because they are a type of positive displacement pump, and the above-noted conditions don't make as much difference to positive displacement pumps.

High temps are not good for flexible impeller pumps. At higher temperatures the impellers will swell. Since there's already a lot of friction in the pump head, the swelling increases the friction, and ultimately prematurely destroys the impeller. Sometimes very rapidly. Jabsco makes shortened impellers that are designed to swell to fit the head, however they're not as efficient at low temperatures, so you kind of have to choose one or the other: all high-temp or all low-temp (or swap impellers based on what you're pumping, but that'd be a pain).

Centrifugal pumps are not great for high temperatures either, but for different reasons. A typical centrifugal pump uses a "Type D" that seals off the head from the shaft. At high temperatures the seal is more prone to fail or crack prematurely, and cause leaking behind the head. There are other seal styles that are better for high temp transfer, though. Some have a separate inlet to allow you to introduce water or other cooling agents to the head to keep the seal cool. Again, you'll want to work with your sales rep to go over which seal choice makes the most sense.

There are a few "do-it-all" pumps we sell that can move hot, cold, thick, thin, near or far: Rotary Lobe, Piston Pumps, and Peristaltics. All are great, but none are cheap.

For those considering ozone, just remember to keep it away from ozone-sensitive materials like Buna, Neoprene, & Nylon. It will destroy them pretty quickly. Other than that I know many folks like ozone for sanitation.

Sounds like a few people in this thread have had issues burning through impellers with Jabsco pumps, US-FIP pumps, and the Italian FIP pumps that MoreWine sells. Flexible impeller pumps have well-known shortcomings. You don't have to baby them, but you do have to know about those shortcomings and take precautions to mitigate them.

I'm attaching a troubleshooting guide that shows illustrations of what impeller failure looks like under different conditions. It's made by Jabsco, but should apply to other brands as well.

There's a lot to unpack in this thread, but I'm happy to answer any questions about Jabsco pumps. We've been selling them for decades in wine, beer and spirits, and I truly believe that in this price range there's no better pump. If you want to spend more you can pretty much have it all—dry running, forward/reverse, self priming, solids handling—but in the sub-$5,000 range your options are more limited. If you need to move viscous solids, you're either looking at air diaphragm pumps or flexible impeller pumps.

I've certainly seen people burn through impellers, but there's always a reason. Likewise, I know folks who've gone years without changing impellers.

If you're losing blades on the impeller—particularly at startup—then all signs point running dry. @captnKB is right on the money: use a sight glass at the inlet to keep an eye on things.

As far as reversing you can definitely do it, but there are some things to consider:

• Don't do it right at start-up. Impellers are made of elastomers. Elastomers have a memory. If it's been sitting for a long time with the blades in one direction then reversing it is going to be hard on the blades
• An old impeller is less flexible than a fresh impeller, and will be more prone to tearing

As far as lubricating the pump on start-up with some food-grade silicone spray or the like: it never hurts, and will certainly extend the life of the impeller. Starting up "wet" will allow you to pull better suction as well.

FIP_TROUBLE_SHOOTING_GUIDE.PDF

Clever little bracket @Patio29Dadio

That's the Flojet G70 in the picture. It's a nice little groundable pump for ~5 GPM. You'll find all kinds of uses for it in your distillery.

I've sold Waukesha & Jabsco RPD pumps to distilleries for moving hot mash. The users I've sold to are very happy with them.

Waukesha makes nice RPD pumps. They can pull some suction and self-prime to some extent, though their ability to do so degrades over time as the rotors wear until ultimately the head must be sent back to Waukesha to be re-machined, and oversize rotors installed. Depending on how much the pump is used it may be 5-10 years before that happens (or you can just continue using it as-is).

Jabsco's RPD pumps don't self-prime dry, but are a cleaner design and don't need to be machined/oversized like Waukesha.

The main downside of RPD pumps is their complexity. If something goes wrong to the point where they need to be torn apart for rebuilding, you can be in over your head very quickly.

The Sandpiper troubleshooting sheet is a good place to start. If the pump is having trouble pulling suction it indicates a sealing problem. As @Jedd Haas points out, the check ball and valve seats are the usual culprits, and a wet end rebuild is in order. Since you've already done that, it could indicate that the air end is having trouble sealing, and is therefore not able to transfer enough power to the air end to pull adequate suction.

AODD pumps are great, but troubleshooting can be tricky when things go wrong. Air will find a path wherever it can, and something as simple as a nicked o-ring that allows air to pass can bedevil you until it's fixed. My bet is that something like a torn or nicked o-ring in the air end is your problem.

That said, unless the machined components have been mangled beyond repair, a complete air end and wet end rebuild will get you basically a brand-new pump. Pay special attention to the torque specs in the user manual, as over-torquing can cause parts to not move freely, and under-torquing can provide a path for air to escape.

@vsaks Not sure who you purchased from originally, but we stock the diaphragm repair kits here in Santa Rosa. You can give us a call at 707-963-9681 if you want to order. You should also order the check valve repair kit if you want to completely rebuild.

Because of their small size they can be tricky little buggers to rebuild properly, but Flojet produces a video demonstrating the process.

The G70's seals and diaphragms are fine for use with alcohol. They're Kalrez, which gets an 'A' rating on chemical compatibility charts. The G70 was originally intended as a general chemical transfer pump because of Kalrez's compatibility with over 1800 chemicals. It is compatible with more aggressive products than alcohol. That said, diaphragms are a wear parts and they will not last indefinitely. Leaving the pump wet with product without rinsing will decrease the lifespan of the wear parts on any product, so best to flush with water or a mild detergent of some kind after use.

2 hours ago, vsaks said:

Do you ever open and clean your pumps ? I am wondering if others might have this issue too

I can't speak for users in the field, but I know that we've sold many, many hundreds of G70s. Not just individually but as part of equipment that we make for distilleries. Looking at our sales history, we sell about one diaphragm kit a year, so my guess is the issue is not that widespread.

41 minutes ago, HedgeBird said:

Thanks for the great info Michael!  Am I able to order 1/2 barb fittings from you guys?  Really appreciate the input.

Yep, they're $5.50. Are you sure you want 1/2" barb? You mentioned threaded in your original post, so that'd be the 1/2" NPT adapters rather than 1/2" barb.

These are not yet on our website, but you can give us a call at 707-963-9681 to order.

Hey @HedgeBird

All the air and liquid ports on the G70 are replaceable and swappable. If you look at the ports you'll see little pull tabs that hold them in place. Flojet makes tons of different connection styles. They come to us with 3/4" barb fittings in/out, but we also stock 1/2" barb, 1/2" NPT threads, and 3/8" tube push-connect (aka John Guest).

The air inlet it is less flexible. I've only seen 1/4" barb fittings for that port. As Tom notes, the short length of hose to whatever-fitting-you-want is the best option.

It may seem like a stupid design, but Flojet's typical end user is OEMs who are going to install it into some other kind of assembly, like a beverage dispensing machine. When we first introduced the G70 into distilleries I think it took Flojet by surprise a little that they had a "hit" on their hands with the little guy, as they were marketing it towards more chemical applications.

We sell Ferrinox labelers with a square bottle upgrade. It's basically a tray with a pneumatic cylinder that pushes the square bottle through at a controlled rate to apply the label evenly. You can use the same labeler to do rounds or squares by just removing the pneumatic tray.

https://store.tcwequipment.com/products/eko-10-labeler

On 3/3/2019 at 10:53 AM, independent21 said:

Are these still available? Location?

Still available in Santa Rosa, CA.

In general, viscous products do best with high vacuum and high pressure. Flexible impeller pumps are a good middle-of-the-road solution with some caveats. They're not perfect, but hard to beat for the price.

Viscous products are kryptonite for centrifugal pumps, so they're right out.

As Jedd notes, Air diaphragm pumps work well as long as you can size them properly. Viscous products pump best with higher pressures, and consequently higher airflow, which means a big, noisy, expensive compressor. They're a great solution as long as you already have an air compressor on-site. Once you're buying an air compressor for the sole purpose of powering your pump, they're not such a slam dunk.

I have a local customer that pumps syrups, sauces, and other honey-like substances. He bought a Ragazzini peristaltic pump about fifteen years ago and swears by it. They pull nearly perfect vacuum and can deliver over 15 bar of pressure. They're used to pump concrete and rock slurries, so molasses is easy. The only downside is the price, as they start around $10k.

A centrifugal pump head on its own is unlikely to be the cause of any potential hazards. It's the motor turning the pump head you should be concerned about. Some motors can spark, which can ignite flammable vapors. You'll want to make sure the pump's motor is rated for use in areas where potentially flammable vapors may be present, either through normal use or in the case of equipment failure.

Air diaphragm pumps—though they pose much less of a sparking risk—are not necessarily intrinsically safe. Both laminar flow and the reciprocating action in the pump both have the potential to build up static electricity during normal use. As a result, many air diaphragm pumps are available in ATEX, UL, etc. versions that are fully groundable, so that any static electricity that does build up can be dissipated to ground.

10 minutes ago, indyspirits said:

I assume you offer the quad in your bottle rinser for wine?

Depends. We use the quad on the electric Minimax. For our Rinser/Sparger, however, most facilities rinse with their house water that's been filtered/treated, and flows under its own pressure. No pump needed, so we just build a timing circuit.

10 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

If I wanted to get really, really creative with that G70 pump...

I'd run it with Nitrogen or CO2, only from a tank.  No electrics.

I'd also remove the exhaust muffler, and instead plumb the gas exhaust to a second nozzle to act as an inert gas purge.

This way, you aren't wasting the inert gas you are using the power the pump.  You get to eat your cake and eat it too.

Sure, managing bottled gas is a real pain in the a$$, but if inert gas purge is something you feel is important, you could probably do something really slick with this.

One nozzle wash, the second nozzle purge.  Workflow is simple, place bottle on wash, move wash bottle to purge.  

For the gas flow control, use something like a gas whisker valve, again - no electrics, just use it on the wash port, the purge port simple runs as a slave.  Or even a simple pneumatic/gas foot switch.

https://powermatic.net/whisker-valve

Simple recirculating system, with the pump pushing through a filter cartridge prior to the nozzle.

Interesting idea. You wouldn't need to plumb off the gas exhaust. It might actually make things more difficult. Just run a 'Y' from your gas line. One end goes to the G70 and the other end goes to the second nozzle—or more appropriately, a second regulator so that you're not delivering the same psi to the pump that you are to the bottles for sparging. The G70 will take about 30 psi and the sparging nozzle will work with less than 10.

I don't know how you'd get it to work from the exhaust port, because the G70 will only exhaust when the pump is running. Would be very cool if you could find a way to make it work. Anyway, they don't use a whole lot of compressed air. Some facilities run the little Flojets off of inert gas exclusively.

10 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Also understand the irony that most electric fillers are not explosion proof, nor do they use explosion proof pumps inside.  Some of the most common ones we use, either pumped or vacuum - not explosion proof.  Even gravity fillers with bottom-mount feed pumps, usually not explosion proof.

That said, Flojet makes AC120v or 12/24v DC diaphragm pumps with compatible plastics that have a pressure switch shutoff.  It will pump as long as the output is open.  You might find a very similar pump within a very commonly used filler. 

 

 

Exactly. Sounds like you're referring to Flojet's Quad pumps. Anyone thinking about using these pumps should note that Flojet warns against their use with products that have a flash point below 100 °F.

3 hours ago, Thatch said:

These close when the bottle is removed  https://morewinemaking.com/products/stainless-steel-bottle-washer.html

 

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/bottle-washer   But, I have no idea if the washers or any internal parts might not be appropriate for ethanol.

The brass one will definitely not work.

The Flojet G70—like all air diaphragm pumps—can be deadheaded (run against closed discharge outlet) and will stop running automatically when the outlet closes. So you'd need to figure out a way to jury-rig it so that the discharge closes when the bottle is removed. Or you could manually close a valve.

From the article:

Quote

During the Christmas season, it is sad that con artists go to extreme lengths in order to steal money and personal information from those who support Kentucky’s popular bourbon industry,

Ha! These guys have been at it for a few "Christmas seasons" at least. Glad to see they're finally getting some heat from authorities, but will probably turn up like a bad penny using a new domain and too-good-to-be-true prices.

6 hours ago, indyspirits said:

I meant to speak on this... Recently we had a safety consultant conduct an audit. They specifically asked about filter media alluding to hazards of DE since it contains crystalline silica. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1035494/   is one article that may be of interest.  Uncertain if the lenticular filter systems mitigate this risk or if the risk is worth considering.

Typically the health hazards of DE are related to its loose powder form. If inhaled it is a known lung irritant, like fiberglass. The OSHA consequences are why filtering with DE powder has been almost entirely eliminated in the beverage industry, and replaced with plate & frame or lenticular filtration.

40 x 40 sheets and lenticular modules often contain DE or Perlite mixed with a binding agent like cellulose, so you're no longer dealing with a loose powder. The DE is contained in the media, so you don't have the same risks for lung irritation or concerns about proper disposal. Anyway, in spite of the concerns, diatomaceous earth on its own is not asbestos. It's still widely used as a natural flea powder. Some people even take it as a dietary supplement, though it sounds pretty dubious. The linked article is about people that work in DE mines, particularly those that worked before 1950.

Yes, special equipment is needed to install roll-on pilfer proof (ROPP) caps like the ones you're describing.

You need a capping head that is sized and adjusted to match your bottle, cap, and cap liner material. The head is installed in a capping machine capable of applying the proper pressure and rotation to form the threads and seal the cap. It's surprisingly complex to get right and easy to get wrong, resulting in caps that don't seal properly. There is, in fact, a whole 200+ page book written on the finer points of properly closing a bottle with a screw cap.

We sell a capper, but the manufacturer requires bottle and cap samples to test and adjust the machine prior to shipping. This is to avoid issues with improper sealing. Most reputable manufacturers will require the same. There are only a couple of companies that manufacture the closing heads. The engineering requirements are quite complex.

I'd avoid ROPP caps if you're only planning for a small project and stick to t-top corks. Much simpler, unless you're planning on moving all of your production over to ROPP (which is a nice way to go).

We have two large tanks for a nice price. These tanks were brought in for a customer whose operations had to downsize while the tanks were still on the water from Europe. We're trying to help him out by spreading the word on these tanks, but he (our customer) will be the ultimate seller, so any offers would have to go through him.

I'm attaching tank specs. They don't photograph very well because they are lying on their side.

These will likely have to be transported by flatbed, though they could be loaded into a 40-foot container. In short, transportation will likely be fairly pricey, so a West Coast buyer will have a price advantage.

120 HL (3,170 Gallons) Closed Top, Conical Bottom Tank
* Diameter: 2100 mm
* Body height 3500 mm
* Leg height 330 mm
* AISI 304 BA Stainless Steel construction
* Adjustable leg levelers
* Top manway, diameter 400 mm
* 3" TC port
* Support for ladder
* Lower manway door
* Connection for sample tap NPT 1/2"
* Conical bottom
* Bottom drain connection TC 3"
* Partial drain connection 3" TC

Original Price: $14,995

145 HL (3,830) Gallons, Closed Top, Flat Bottom Tank
* Tank diameter 2300 mm
* Body height 4500 mm
* Legs height 330 mm
* Adjustable leg levelers
* Sloped bottom 5%
* AISI 304 BA Stainless Steel Construction
* Rectangular bottom manway 530 x 420 mm
* Bottom 3" TC Connection
* Support for ladder
* Circular top manway

Original Price: $14,295

Customer is pretty keen to sell, so I'm sure reasonable offers will be considered, and we can put any interested parties in touch.

Closed type tank 145 hl 01(1).pdf

Closed type tank 120 hl 01(3).pdf

5 hours ago, sandytoes said:

I ended up getting the Continental Brewline for 10.30 a foot.

Brewline has a chlorobutyl liner. Generally we recommend chlorobutyl for up to about 50% ABV, after which UPE (like on GlideTech Distillery) exhibits superior resistance over the long term.

The other thing our customers like about Glidetech Distillery relative to Continental hoses is the "channels". Continental's hoses are flat are flat on the exterior, which lets liquids pool and gather on the ground if the hose is blocking the flow to your drain. Glidetech has ridges so liquids can flow past to your drain. And, of course, the smooth exterior cover that makes it easy to drag (hence the "glide" in GlideTech)

Dang. That is really clever and very cleanly done. I was going crazy trying to think of a rack and pinion setup or something, but I really like this. I'm going to see if we can get something going in production once our busy season settles down.