SSF (Simultaneous Saccharification and Fermentation) mashing without agitation

[Up&Adam]

We just bought 2 x 500 gallon "working capacity" open top mixing vessels, they were dirt cheap, steam jacketed and are in excellent shape. They did not come with agitators although I am chasing quotes for some. My question is, how far out of my mind am I to try to mash in without agitation if I plan on fermenting in the same vessel? My idea is to recirculate the slurry through our diaphragm pump while reverse step mashing, basically mashing my corn at high temp with help from a nearby kettle, resting for 90 minutes and then using the jackets and cold liquor in dropping temp to add wheat, rest, drop to add barley, rest and then knockout. All grain is milled very fine. i realize that my efficiency and yield will likely suffer and that without agitation my temp drops will be considerably slower but am I just setting myself up to COMPLETELY fail?  All advice and criticism is welcome.

[JustAndy]

I think yes: How will it become slurry? It seems like without agitation/mixing/blending create a slurry of grain and water I would be concerned at the start you'll have super high viscosity pump clogging dough balls. 

[Pour Decisions]

I think you'd be ok as long as your mash keep moving. Will you add enzymes to help liquify and prevent the possibility of plugging up your lines? 

[SlickFloss]

This is a process nightmare. I have a few 240 gallon mash cooker with bottom sweep only agitators and a recirc line once you get to certain level no benefit from mash vessel agitator for flour blending into grain slurry as cook progressed. Big time clumps and cakes of grain. Super dialed in now but not the best. But also important atleast with a bottom sweep the slurry is evenly heated and particles don’t sit on the jacket as you gel. You’re going to scorch without any agitation. A ton. Every time you make anything with high wheat rye and or malt percentage. Corn burns too. Your cook process at any scale is going to take forever by the time you are done oar paddling and comically large commercial kitchen whisking your clumps to smithereens.yields are gonna suck. Withbinvestment there are ways to do this but why don’t you just buy cookers meant for cooking slurry? You can either sell these. Or convert them to be used as fermenters, make stills out of them, only cook rum in them, but buy a great cooker!

[Up&Adam]

8 hours ago, SlickFloss said:

This is a process nightmare. I have a few 240 gallon mash cooker with bottom sweep only agitators and a recirc line once you get to certain level no benefit from mash vessel agitator for flour blending into grain slurry as cook progressed. Big time clumps and cakes of grain. Super dialed in now but not the best. But also important atleast with a bottom sweep the slurry is evenly heated and particles don’t sit on the jacket as you gel. You’re going to scorch without any agitation. A ton. Every time you make anything with high wheat rye and or malt percentage. Corn burns too. Your cook process at any scale is going to take forever by the time you are done oar paddling and comically large commercial kitchen whisking your clumps to smithereens.yields are gonna suck. Withbinvestment there are ways to do this but why don’t you just buy cookers meant for cooking slurry? You can either sell these. Or convert them to be used as fermenters, make stills out of them, only cook rum in them, but buy a great cooker!

Were looking into a cooker for sure, we paid $1750 a piece for these things, they actually hold about 25 BBL of rum wash, anything low protein/low foam works off just fine without a massive mess. we picked them up locally with the intention of using them as fermenters and have primarily been using them for Rum and Moonshine washes. as of now they are not hooked into our steam lines but i can come straight out of our 30BBL kettle from a boil and only lose a few degrees. Point well taken, i got to dreaming yesterday and wondered if it was possible, Thanks for talking me off of that cliff.

[Up&Adam]

I thought i would throw everything ive got at it, high temp enzymes/betaglucans, potentially a rice hull or two. i think based on everyones advice that ill stay in my lane and avoid shoveling doughballs for the time being. 

[SlickFloss]

Sorry didn’t want to make it feel like a stay in your lane type thing I’m just trying to save you the literal hours of heart ache and burns…. Big issue is the batch not moving and the fixed nature of a recirc line. All grist put into the kettle will be chased away by the flow of the recirc and all that flour will press together into clumps, if you’re at temp it will gelatinize the outsides completely water impermeable and you can find flour I shit you not on the other side of your strip. 
 

you could splurge for a grist hydrator  but I’ve never really found one I’ve liked, always end up taking them out. 
 

you could plumb your recirc line to cause flow in the tank and weld a paddle baffle into the tank but you’d want a mother fucker of a pump 

[Up&Adam]

On 11/22/2022 at 8:25 AM, SlickFloss said:

Sorry didn’t want to make it feel like a stay in your lane type thing I’m just trying to save you the literal hours of heart ache and burns…. Big issue is the batch not moving and the fixed nature of a recirc line. All grist put into the kettle will be chased away by the flow of the recirc and all that flour will press together into clumps, if you’re at temp it will gelatinize the outsides completely water impermeable and you can find flour I shit you not on the other side of your strip. 
 

you could splurge for a grist hydrator  but I’ve never really found one I’ve liked, always end up taking them out. 
 

you could plumb your recirc line to cause flow in the tank and weld a paddle baffle into the tank but you’d want a mother fucker of a pump 

lol, i was telling myself to stay in my lane! Thank you for the advice, i think ill wait to make a move until i get an agitator in house. apparently its kinda hard to find/retrofit an agitator for a 23 year old vessel. i do respect the creativity of the baffle idea, almost like a sparge arm/ scatter plate.

[SlickFloss]

Retrofitting that tank with an agitator would cost you a new tank. If you’re set on those cookers you could get a slurry tank, so imagine a smaller cooker that you just use to mix grain and hot water in so obviously agitator wanted. Instead of a cooker per se you could take hot water and mix it with grain in a stainless 550 gallon tote, you can buy a removable top mounted agitator for it brand new for a couple gs, when slurry is mixed transfer it to cooker to cook. I would reccomend only slightly warm water for this like 80-100 so your not steaming up the agitator and can see inside of the tote. Recirc the tote while mixing. When mixed connect line to cooker, wash rinse repeat. Could have multiple stainless 550s with one agitator so you could do it generally quickly for the task at hand….. lots of labor….. could clean those up sell those for cash and buy a used one with an agitator or a new one from Paul for cheap! I got backwoods methods all day but they’re a ton of work lmk if you want me to keep chirping 

[oboyatelny]

How fast do you cool that mash....and what means?