Product Reduction Ratio

[Seth]

I have a question, I have received conflicting information. I have figured the reduction ratio and it seems that you get a barrel of spirit from a 500 gallon batch. But I have been told that it takes a thousand gallons of wash to get a barrel of spirit. I am just wondering which one to believe. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Seth

[bluestar]

I have a question, I have received conflicting information. I have figured the reduction ratio and it seems that you get a barrel of spirit from a 500 gallon batch. But I have been told that it takes a thousand gallons of wash to get a barrel of spirit. I am just wondering which one to believe. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Seth

You should do some simple educational reading first before posting. Your values are so far from correct it suggests you have not read any of the layman introductions to production, many of which are on the web. Once you have done that, come back to this forum with more detailed questions. Good luck.

[Seth]

You should do some simple educational reading first before posting. Your values are so far from correct it suggests you have not read any of the layman introductions to production, many of which are on the web. Once you have done that, come back to this forum with more detailed questions. Good luck.

Actually blue star the information I received is from Vendome Copper so if you think they don't know what they are talking about maybe you need to do some more reading. Don't insult the intelligence of those you don't even know. The purpose of this forum is for educating those who want to become successful distillers. What's your purpose here?

[Denver Distiller]

I have a question, I have received conflicting information. I have figured the reduction ratio and it seems that you get a barrel of spirit from a 500 gallon batch. But I have been told that it takes a thousand gallons of wash to get a barrel of spirit. I am just wondering which one to believe. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Seth

The answer is: it depends.

What's the abv of the "500 gallon batch"?

What's the entry proof for the spirit you wish to put in a barrel?

[Seth]

The answer is: it depends.

What's the abv of the "500 gallon batch"?

What's the entry proof for the spirit you wish to put in a barrel?

I should have been more specific. I intend to start with a 10 percent wash, I will be double distilling and putting it into the barrel at 120 proof. Vendome suggests that a 500 gallon batch at 8 percent starting abv will yield 33 cases of 12 750ml bottles per batch. I have read Bill Owens' book Craft of Whiskey distilling and unless it is a typo he says 1000 gallons of wash yields two barrels. I just want the right info for my business plan.

Seth

[Lenny]

Quick tangent from the original intent of Seth's post:

No disrespect intended, Bluestar - i've noticed you post with helpful intentions before. I do take issue though, with the type of response that instructs someone to essentially go lean something first.

Preparing to take the plunge into craft distilling (or any endeavor) requires a ton of research in various forms. Reading, hands on experimentation, questioning/speaking with others in the industry, and... scouring the Internets (specifically this forum) for bits of information. The guy's asking a question... If one has the time to answer with a legitimate and productive answer, great. In my opinion, there is not a whole lot of value given to an answer along the lines of 'do some reading'. Who does that really serve? Not Seth and not for those that might be searching for information on the topic of Product Reduction Ratio and come across this thread.

I guess it's just my opinion that this forum stands best as a repository of invaluable information on craft distilling -- which can be expanded on by those who generously offer their time and knowledge to it. Thank you Denver Distiller for continuously taking the time to contribute your knowledge. I hope to eventually reach a a similar authoritative stance on all things distilling - and have the time to contribute in a productive manner.

-lenny

[will]

500 gallons of wash x .08 = 40 gallons of absolute alcohol. this is the theoretical yield of this 8% wash, and nobody gets that much.

40 gallons of absolute alcohol / .60 = 66.6 gallons of 120 proof juice going into the barrel. again, this is theoretical.

53 / 66.6 = ~80%. this is the efficiency with which you have to operate your equipment in order to fill a 53 gallon barrel with the distillate from this wash. you will be operating at a lower efficiency.

good luck,

will

[Seth]

500 gallons of wash x .08 = 40 gallons of absolute alcohol. this is the theoretical yield of this 8% wash, and nobody gets that much.

40 gallons of absolute alcohol / .60 = 66.6 gallons of 120 proof juice going into the barrel. again, this is theoretical.

53 / 66.6 = ~80%. this is the efficiency with which you have to operate your equipment in order to fill a 53 gallon barrel with the distillate from this wash. you will be operating at a lower efficiency.

good luck,

will

Thank you all for your responses. I had figured it on 100 percent efficiency. What is a practical figure for figuring distilling efficiency?

Seth

[Jason Parker]

I, too, have read Bill Owen's book and have found, on average, 4 typos per page, rendering it almost useless as a reference. Just enjoy the pictures and follow Will's advice. He's almost never wrong.

Jason

I should have been more specific. I intend to start with a 10 percent wash, I will be double distilling and putting it into the barrel at 120 proof. Vendome suggests that a 500 gallon batch at 8 percent starting abv will yield 33 cases of 12 750ml bottles per batch. I have read Bill Owens' book Craft of Whiskey distilling and unless it is a typo he says 1000 gallons of wash yields two barrels. I just want the right info for my business plan.

Seth

[will]

a universe of variables in that question.

run the numbers from 50% to 70% overall, but that's going into the barrel, you'll have losses there too. you'll likely fall to the higher side - maybe 65% or so.

good luck,

will

[Matthew]

I found this post and most of the thread that contains it useful when I was doing these calculations for our business plan:

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1011&view=findpost&p=5971

[will]

by the way, I believe Bill Owens took his input from distillers in the field, so perhaps the guy with 1000 gallons of wash was not really at 10%, maybe he was taking big fat cuts on each pass, who knows. in an ideal world of 100% efficiency, he would fill 3 barrels. if he only gets one, that's called alcohol abuse.

[cowdery]

I love Bill Owens but he writes books faster than most people can read them. One time he asked me to look at a budget, trying to figure the full cost of a barrel of whiskey, and he had neglected to include taxes. Of course, you did the right thing which is find another source and now you're trying to resolve the conflict.

If you are planning to age your spirits in new, charred oak barrels assume about 7 percent evaporation/absorption loss for the first year and 4 percent for every year thereafter, although that can vary too depending on your aging conditions.

[coop]

I love Bill Owens but he writes books faster than most people can read them. One time he asked me to look at a budget, trying to figure the full cost of a barrel of whiskey, and he had neglected to include taxes. Of course, you did the right thing which is find another source and now you're trying to resolve the conflict.

If you are planning to age your spirits in new, charred oak barrels assume about 7 percent evaporation/absorption loss for the first year and 4 percent for every year thereafter, although that can vary too depending on your aging conditions.

Ok now my 2 cents worth. For me which is neither right or wrong after 3 years here is what I get. It takes me 1600 gallons of wash at about 7.5% to 8% ABV and the use of about 1400# of grain. By the time I have a finished product I am netting 105 to 110 gallons of 82 proof alcohol after making my cuts and dilutions. We are always tweaking the process and trying different things to up it but this is what I am getting. Good? Coop

[bluestar]

I have a question, I have received conflicting information. I have figured the reduction ratio and it seems that you get a barrel of spirit from a 500 gallon batch. But I have been told that it takes a thousand gallons of wash to get a barrel of spirit. I am just wondering which one to believe. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Seth

OK, first of all, Seth, mea culpa!

I read and reread the message thinking to respond, but I misread it every time: I thought it said 500 gallons generates 1 GALLON! I missed the unit change from gallons to 1 BARREL! So, thinking you were asking whether it is either 500 or 1000 gallons of wash to get a GALLON of spirit, I wrote my reply, which in that context might have been at least somewhat understandable. But even then, perhaps I could have been more helpful. So again, mea culpa.

[Seth]

OK, first of all, Seth, mea culpa!

I read and reread the message thinking to respond, but I misread it every time: I thought it said 500 gallons generates 1 GALLON! I missed the unit change from gallons to 1 BARREL! So, thinking you were asking whether it is either 500 or 1000 gallons of wash to get a GALLON of spirit, I wrote my reply, which in that context might have been at least somewhat understandable. But even then, perhaps I could have been more helpful. So again, mea culpa.

No harm no foul and again thanks to everyone for their helpful responses. Hopefully someday I too can contribute to the forum with my experience to help the next group of hopeful distillers.

Seth

[JohninWV]

Seth,

A 12 pack case of 750 mls at 80 proof is 1.902 PG. At 33 cases, Vendome is saying you are gonna get 62.766 PG from one 500 gallon mash.

500 gallons at 8% = 40 gallons of OH or 80 PG

With perfect efficiency and modest heads and tails cuts of 20%, you are already at that threshold (80 PG * .8 for heads and tails equals 64 PG.).

This doesn't seem likely at all.

FYI: At 120 proof, you can fit about 63.6 PG into a 53 gallon barrel. Of course that changes if you want to put alcohol in at a higher proof for lower production costs or if you want to put it in a lower proof for different extraction, flavor profiles, etc.

EDIT: I should point out that according to my calculations, both Vendome and Bill are saying the say thing you refer to in post #5, but post #1 says something different. Vendome is saying you get 62 PG (about 1 barrel at 120 proof) from a 500 gallon wash and Bill says you get 2 barrels from 1000 gallons of wash. Of course neither mention Chuck's point of evaporation or will's point about efficiency.

Coop,

At 110 gallons at 82 proof, you are getting 90.2 PG. That 90.2 PG comes from 1400# of grain. Did I read that correctly?

I about that when I make vodka and a little less when I make whiskey.....of finished product. That is based off of straight production with no added tails to either the vodka or the whiskey runs.

Are you sure that your mash is 7.5% to 8%? It seems a bit low, but the overall yield on the pounds of grain doesn't seem off to me if I'm calculating the numbers correctly. 1600 gallons @ 7.5% is 120 gallons of OH or 240 PG....getting 90.2 seems like 37.6% efficiency.

I always did Will's math a bit differently. For whatever reason, I think of everything in PG and rarely calculate how many WG I have. I'm just set up that way.

Will's the resident math whiz, so I hope I get an A on this. Will, please check my math.

[Seth]

by the way, I believe Bill Owens took his input from distillers in the field, so perhaps the guy with 1000 gallons of wash was not really at 10%, maybe he was taking big fat cuts on each pass, who knows. in an ideal world of 100% efficiency, he would fill 3 barrels. if he only gets one, that's called alcohol abuse.

So this might sound be a dumb question and I'm not the greatest at math but am I right in figuring at 65 percent efficiency I could expect 45 gallons of 120 proof spirit to go into the barrel. I am just wanting my math checked, I could be totally wrong.

Thanks

Seth

[coop]

Seth,

A 12 pack case of 750 mls at 80 proof is 1.902 PG. At 33 cases, Vendome is saying you are gonna get 62.766 PG from one 500 gallon mash.

500 gallons at 8% = 40 gallons of OH or 80 PG

With perfect efficiency and modest heads and tails cuts of 20%, you are already at that threshold (80 PG * .8 for heads and tails equals 64 PG.).

This doesn't seem likely at all.

FYI: At 120 proof, you can fit about 63.6 PG into a 53 gallon barrel. Of course that changes if you want to put alcohol in at a higher proof for lower production costs or if you want to put it in a lower proof for different extraction, flavor profiles, etc.

EDIT: I should point out that according to my calculations, both Vendome and Bill are saying the say thing you refer to in post #5, but post #1 says something different. Vendome is saying you get 62 PG (about 1 barrel at 120 proof) from a 500 gallon wash and Bill says you get 2 barrels from 1000 gallons of wash. Of course neither mention Chuck's point of evaporation or will's point about efficiency.

Coop,

At 110 gallons at 82 proof, you are getting 90.2 PG. That 90.2 PG comes from 1400# of grain. Did I read that correctly?

I about that when I make vodka and a little less when I make whiskey.....of finished product. That is based off of straight production with no added tails to either the vodka or the whiskey runs.

Are you sure that your mash is 7.5% to 8%? It seems a bit low, but the overall yield on the pounds of grain doesn't seem off to me if I'm calculating the numbers correctly. 1600 gallons @ 7.5% is 120 gallons of OH or 240 PG....getting 90.2 seems like 37.6% efficiency.

I always did Will's math a bit differently. For whatever reason, I think of everything in PG and rarely calculate how many WG I have. I'm just set up that way.

Will's the resident math whiz, so I hope I get an A on this. Will, please check my math.

Yes you are reading is correctly. We use a refractometer on every mash run. It measures brix on left scale and approx alcohol yield on right side. We do use more water than most but this is done to accommodate still size and works with our process for distilling full runs each time. I think we all wish we could get 100% on everything and on every run. But then the real world steps in and wham. Coop

[JohninWV]

So this might sound be a dumb question and I'm not the greatest at math but am I right in figuring at 65 percent efficiency I could expect 45 gallons of 120 proof spirit to go into the barrel. I am just wanting my math checked, I could be totally wrong.

Thanks

Seth

At 1000 gallons of mash at 10% OH and 100% efficiency, you would have 100 gallons of OH, or 200 PG. At 65% efficiency, that's 130 PG or 108.3 WG@ 120 proof.

At 500 gallons of mash at 8% OH and 100% efficiency, you would have 40 gallons of OH, or 80 PG. At 65% efficiency, that's 52 PG or 43.3WG @ 120 proof. (maybe you were rounding to 45 gallons?)

[Seth]

At 1000 gallons of mash at 10% OH and 100% efficiency, you would have 100 gallons of OH, or 200 PG. At 65% efficiency, that's 130 PG or 108.3 WG@ 120 proof.

At 500 gallons of mash at 8% OH and 100% efficiency, you would have 40 gallons of OH, or 80 PG. At 65% efficiency, that's 52 PG or 43.3WG @ 120 proof. (maybe you were rounding to 45 gallons?)

Thanks and yes I rounded up for ease of posting. Again thank you to everyone for their help and patience with this topic.