ViolentBlue Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 I have a design we've been working on, just a little more work and its ready to go into production. a few things are missing on this design, but I won't point them all out at this time. I invite your comments and questions.
Rich Morgan Posted June 29, 2011 Posted June 29, 2011 It appears that you cooling water feeds the top of the reflux condensor then passes to the product condensor. You need to be able to control the water flow through the reflux with a high degree of accuracy, while ensuring that the water flow through the product condensor is never interupted (itherwise you can get vapout at the output, or at least hot spirit). I would plumb the two cooling loops independantly with their own flow controls.
ViolentBlue Posted June 29, 2011 Author Posted June 29, 2011 It appears that you cooling water feeds the top of the reflux condensor then passes to the product condensor. You need to be able to control the water flow through the reflux with a high degree of accuracy, while ensuring that the water flow through the product condensor is never interupted (itherwise you can get vapout at the output, or at least hot spirit). I would plumb the two cooling loops independantly with their own flow controls. water actually feeds into the bottom of the product condenser(counter flow), then out the top to the reflux. this is the reasoning behind such a long product condenser. allowing it to condense out the product appropriately, but heat the cooling water up to a point where its at the correct temperature for the reflux. this will be handled by a temperature sensor in the reflux controlling a pair of solenoid valves on the input regulating flow. that way one controls the reflux rate by the temperature control rather than attempting to balance manually.
Jedd Haas Posted June 29, 2011 Posted June 29, 2011 It appears this is a direct fire design; is it intended to run on natural gas? If so, what is the BTU requirement?
Rich Morgan Posted June 29, 2011 Posted June 29, 2011 water actually feeds into the bottom of the product condenser(counter flow), then out the top to the reflux. this is the reasoning behind such a long product condenser. allowing it to condense out the product appropriately, but heat the cooling water up to a point where its at the correct temperature for the reflux. this will be handled by a temperature sensor in the reflux controlling a pair of solenoid valves on the input regulating flow. that way one controls the reflux rate by the temperature control rather than attempting to balance manually. Clever approach
Rich Morgan Posted June 29, 2011 Posted June 29, 2011 It appears this is a direct fire design; is it intended to run on natural gas? If so, what is the BTU requirement? With the return line from the base of the column to the pot, unless there is a full sump, you should have a U bend in the line to stop vapor travelling up the line. Minor issue, but all adds to efficiiency. rich..
ViolentBlue Posted June 29, 2011 Author Posted June 29, 2011 its actually makes use of a waterbath, heating could be done with wood fire, gas or waste oil. plan for 75,000 btu
ViolentBlue Posted June 29, 2011 Author Posted June 29, 2011 Identical still very similar design, there are a number of manufacturers building stills along this line.
ViolentBlue Posted June 29, 2011 Author Posted June 29, 2011 With the return line from the base of the column to the pot, unless there is a full sump, you should have a U bend in the line to stop vapor travelling up the line. Minor issue, but all adds to efficiiency. rich.. Yes, that would be on a hidden layer in this drawing, but it will be there. also looking at adding a valve to bypass the column, allowing the unit to operate as an alembic if so desired.
ViolentBlue Posted July 3, 2011 Author Posted July 3, 2011 discussing with the factory about boiler options. if the water bath doesn't work for you, we should be able to accommodate steam heat, and larger boiler sizes too.
ViolentBlue Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 updated drawing pricing looking at $37k plus shipping and 90 days for delivery.
Jedd Haas Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 pricing looking at $37k plus shipping and 90 days for delivery. That's comparable to the price for a similar German still. What is your competitive advantage, if there is no price advantage?
Palmetto Coast Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 That's comparable to the price for a similar German still. What is your competitive advantage, if there is no price advantage? Just curious which still you have found with this size and price point. Also curious about customer service offered. Todd
ViolentBlue Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 That's comparable to the price for a similar German still. What is your competitive advantage, if there is no price advantage? not sure where you found a German built still in this price range. we are building this still in order to fill a gap in the market. Even used stills in this size and configuration usually sell for much more.
ViolentBlue Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 Just curious which still you have found with this size and price point. Also curious about customer service offered. Todd we're a new company, so we're eager to develop a loyal customer base. If you require on site consulting, with set up or learning to run the still, we can accommodate.
Jedd Haas Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 hi VB and Todd, I obtained pricing information from four different German manufacturers. Their stills generally start around $25k, although they do go up quickly from there as the capacity increases and you add options. Of course, there are also the many different options one can add, the Euro surcharge factor, along with shipping and customs. Some of these manufacturers also offered on-site consulting as well. As always, I'm interested in a discussion of the actual product. I like to buy American (or Canadian, as the case may be, eh?). I'd like to hear more specifics about this still. What type of plates are in the column? It appears your bypass or drain valves feed to the plate immediately below, rather than back to the boiler, as is done in some of the German stills. Can you elaborate on this decision? Regarding the input heat, a 40 gallon gas water heater is typically around 40k btu, and of course it doesn't have to boil the water either. 500 liters is about 132 gallons, 3.3 times the size, which would suggest one might need 132k btu for parity; or more for boiling and faster heat-up. How did you arrive at the 75k btu requirement? Finally, (for now) which parts of the still are copper?
ViolentBlue Posted July 7, 2011 Author Posted July 7, 2011 Boiler is stainless, the bell is copper and the column is all copper. the plates use cap and risers. as for heat loading, comparing to a hot water heater is not a good analogue, hot water heaters serve a much different purpose, and their duty cycle is of course much different as well. so its not a direct 1 to 1 comparison. My background is in mechanical design, so I left the heat calculations to the engineers, but I'll share a little information with you if you like a similar sized steam jacketed and insulated boiler requires a 27kbtu steam source to bring contents to boil (water) over a 3 hour period. this still is water bathed (double boiler) so you have the inherent difficulties of bringing more mass up to temperature, as well as the inefficiencies of heat transfer in the double boiler setup. also you will want to vary the heat source, since maximum heat will not always be desired.
Jedd Haas Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 When do you anticipate you'll have an initial prototype of this still?
ViolentBlue Posted July 7, 2011 Author Posted July 7, 2011 When do you anticipate you'll have an initial prototype of this still? you can order yours today if you wanted. all parts have been proven in different applications this particular layout is new, but design is proven elsewhere.
JohnMiller Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 The last time I had a quote for a German 500L still it was closer to $70K
Panama Jack Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 Boiler is stainless, the bell is copper and the column is all copper. the plates use cap and risers. as for heat loading, comparing to a hot water heater is not a good analogue, hot water heaters serve a much different purpose, and their duty cycle is of course much different as well. so its not a direct 1 to 1 comparison. My background is in mechanical design, so I left the heat calculations to the engineers, but I'll share a little information with you if you like a similar sized steam jacketed and insulated boiler requires a 27kbtu steam source to bring contents to boil (water) over a 3 hour period. this still is water bathed (double boiler) so you have the inherent difficulties of bringing more mass up to temperature, as well as the inefficiencies of heat transfer in the double boiler setup. also you will want to vary the heat source, since maximum heat will not always be desired. what would price be if the body was copper instead of stainless? any photos of finished units?
ViolentBlue Posted July 9, 2011 Author Posted July 9, 2011 what would price be if the body was copper instead of stainless? any photos of finished units? new design, so no completed unit pictures yet. but the column has been used with success in other configurations I can send pictures of that if you like. But the math is solid. I can get a price from the factory on an all copper boiler, but I foresee it being a little more spendy since copper is so dear at the moment. we chose to go with a stainless boiler and copper column in order to maximize the copper/vapor contact. while copper in the boiler is helpful for sulphite removal, its not nearly as important as in the upstream vapor path. if you'd like a quote, email me and I'll put one together for you. steven@artisanstilldesign.com
ViolentBlue Posted July 9, 2011 Author Posted July 9, 2011 this is a 2000L still wich shares many parts with our smaller unit. the column is identical to the one on its little brother that looks similar bit comes in at 1000L we these units have huge scraper systems meant for distilling heavy mashes.
Panama Jack Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 this is a 2000L still wich shares many parts with our smaller unit. the column is identical to the one on its little brother that looks similar bit comes in at 1000L we these units have huge scraper systems meant for distilling heavy mashes. where did they put these in and what are they making? any reason they are using SS body instead of copper?
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