stillwagon Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I have been doing quite a bit of research in the use of dunder and dunder pits. I was curious if and what other's take is on this. The definition of dunder varies some as well. Some say it is the dregs of fermentation, others it is the wash that is left over after distillation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorghumrunner Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 I have done some work with aging dunder with my Sweet Sorghum juice wines. It does add a layer of complexity and flavor to the distillate. But, after reading Rafael Arroyo's paper on Dark Rum production, I believe that there is a specific bacteria that rum producers want, that produces the fatty acid profile. Clostridium Saccharobutyricum, which I believe must be commercially available, though I have not looked for it. It seems that it's preferred to use the isolated bacteria culture, rather than the bacteria cocktail that aged dunder is. I may be mistaken, as I've yet to experiment with this method, but it's the way i would like to go. You may have read this article already: http://distillers.ta..._Rums/index.htm What I always considered dunder was the wash after fermentation. Folks age this in an open barrel, maybe covered with cheesecloth or something, and scrape the top mold off before use. I don't know if anyone who is professionally distilling Rum in the US employs this method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillwagon Posted July 20, 2013 Author Share Posted July 20, 2013 Thank you for your reply. I read the article and found the bacteria available. It is said not for human use, but I would imagine alcohol levels, distillation, and of course the percentage of alcohol in the finished product eliminate the possibility of any bacteria making it to the consumer. It has a biohazard level of 1, meaning not infectious to humans. I wonder if the TTB would approve of its use? I have also allowed a small amount of "dunder" to age and it did develop a mold. One sample developed two different molds, the other only one. I infected one sample with a commercial strain of bacteria and enzymes and it prohibited mold growth. I have not done anything else with these samples other than observe them. The mold infected samples have become lighter in color and clearer, so the mold is removing contents as it feeds on it, That was an interesting result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillwagon Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 I found more information referring to Arroyo's work. I think I am going to purchase some of the bacteria to experiment with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillwagon Posted July 26, 2013 Author Share Posted July 26, 2013 I found a few more labs that sell the bacteria. One in England, a couple in Asia, and another private firm in the US. I have an inquiry with the US firm. An interesting side note is that this bacteria is also sold as a probiotic in capsule form, for the regulation of normal gut activities and to help control diarrhea. It is non-pathogenic and is a normal inhabitant of the human gut in the mid intestinal region. I was also given a two step yeast protocol that uses a low alcohol tolerant/high ester producing yeast In the first part of fermentation, This yeast dies out at about 2% ABV. Then the second yeast is pitched to finish out the ferment. I will let you know how this goes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorghumrunner Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Nice, I like how you're running with this. I'm interested to hear if other rum makers are using this method. I assume that they are, as Arroyo was a major figure in puerto rican rum in the 40's. Just haven't heard about it. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillwagon Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 I spoke with a fermentation specialist at Lallemand, and have the inoculum preparation procedure. I should be able to try it out in the next couple of weeks... It turned out to be much simpler than I thought it would be. I ordered half a dozen cultures and should be able to try it out in the next couple of weeks. They are still using the infected dunder from their dunder pits. Arroyo just isolated the bacteria that produced the acids that formed into the desired esters. Should be a fun experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorghumrunner Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Ha, I'm right on your tail. Waiting to hear back from someone at Lallemand. It's gonna be a couple more months before I have any sorghum juice to experiment with though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillwagon Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 We will have to talk about our results... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moscca Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Very interested in this ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillwagon Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 Cultures are in! As soon as my incubator arrives I can begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillwagon Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 The run went well. I did the cuts as Arroyo prescribed. Although the flavors presented themselves at a different proof than he noted. I imagine some variation is to be expected. I am doing a second run with some slight variations in levels of sugars, ABV, and temp when introducing the bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabtastic Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 is there an update on that link? it seems to no longer be working. thanks, Noah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorghumrunner Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Hey Noah, You're right the link did die, I found another link, and updated my original post. Though the tastylime link did have a lot of good articles on it. is there an update on that link? it seems to no longer be working. thanks, Noah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSpye Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 If anyone is interested, I found this to be a fun read. As has been said before, the hobby distillers can be a useful source of "street smarts". Dunder pit experiment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabtastic Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Just when you think you know how to make rum....then boom. mind blown. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabtastic Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Apparently this is a very heated topic among distillers and enthusiasts.. If I may offer my 2 cents, and this is not fact but theory rather... I get the impression that dunder it's more or less a freak enjoyment of nature than a controlled experience. I'd also caution against the use of C. Sacchrobutyricum for us whiskey producers just because it's cousin C. butyricum is what can make your whiskey smell like vomit (because it's the same acid). C. Sacchrobutyricum is present in dunder because it's present in decaying sugar fields. For those of you with access to fresh pressed cane, maybe use that as your starter culture instead of a pure C.S. culture? I'd imagine the same sort of dunder pit could be used for any sugar source provided the bacteria came from the field, i.e. wild ferm your pressed juices and the like for "dunder" and controlled ferm to take over the "dunder." I'd definitely want to keep this in a control room so as to avoid contaminating current batches in the case that it produces swamp juice.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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